Making It Up with Lisa Unger, author of Served Him Right

“I think people think that the first publishing contract is a windfall... But for most of us, it's the beginning of the story. All it is, is an open door to the writing life. And if you want to succeed... you're going to roll up your sleeves and get to work like everybody else who wants to do anything well in this life.” — Lisa Unger 

Lisa Unger is the New York Times and internationally bestselling author of twenty-three novels. Her critically acclaimed novels have been featured on “Best Book” lists from the Today Show, Good Morning America, Entertainment Weekly, and many others. She has been nominated for, or won, numerous awards including the Strand Critics, ITW Thriller, and Goodreads Choice. In 2019, she received two Edgar Award nominations in the same year. Her non-fiction has appeared in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and others. Lisa is the current co-President of the International Thriller Writers organization. 

Among other things, Lisa and Carter discuss pushing yourself out of your comfort zone by attending writing conferences, why increasing your own visibility is critical for both debut and legacy authors, and learning to let go when writing. At the end of their conversation, they make up an interesting story using a line from Chris Pavone’s The Doorman. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Friends, hello. This is Carter, and welcome to this episode of Making It Up, the podcast where two writers sit down and just talk about whatever comes to mind. I I remember when I first started making it up, I would have a long list of questions for each writer, and which is good. I think that's a good idea for anyone who wants to interview somebody up out there. Um, be prepared at a bare minimum. But I think I just learned very quickly that my style is I get interested in an answer. And so now I want to go down a different road. And then I I realize it just serves me best not to prepare at all or to prepare very little. So I to have a good awareness about the person and their works and as much as you can find online. Um, and maybe I've read them, maybe I haven't read them, but I'm I'm familiar with their works. But then I just want to dig into their life and get to know them kind of maybe in a way that's a non-traditional QA format for authors. It's funny, I just whatever it was, two weeks ago, had an in-person interview in front of about 500 people, um, interviewing Lisa Gardner. And, you know, when you're in person, yes, of course, you have a long list of questions. I don't think I asked her one question on that list because you just start talking and you realize, like, oh, this is an interesting avenue to get into. Um, and I just think even with the conversation for today, we immediately started talking about author community and the importance of joining organizations and going to conferences. Um, and that wasn't my intention, but it became to me very interesting. Um, but before I get to today's guest, I just want to tell you we have relaunched the Unbound Writer website. So, Unbound Writer is my company where I offer private coaching services for writers, and we also offer seminars, workshops, and retreats. So we kind of gutted the website, redid it all, and it is out there. And there's a little teaser about what I've been talking about a little bit. We're still working on it, but an Unbound Writer retreat in Paris. We're looking at now the spring of 2027 with Alex Finlay and Clemence Michelon, um, and maybe another author, uh Suspense Retreat. So if you go to unboundwriter.com and you go to retreats, you're going to see a teaser there. There is a button there where you can join an interest form. So you would be the first to know when we solidify dates and all the details. So check that out. Um, all right. So today, today's guest. Well, you probably already know who today's guest is because you've read about it in the description of the episode. But today I talked to the mighty Lisa Unger, who I've never met before. I'm quite familiar with her. And you know, every time I go to Thriller Fest, I see her because she's the co-president of International Thriller Writers. Um, and that's what we spend a decent amount of time talking about. Um, but Lisa is the powerhouse writer of um psychological suspense, thrillers, and her 23rd book is as of this recording, it's going to be out next week. It'll already be out by the time this airs. It's called Served Him Right. Um, and so it's funny, there are parallels to her and Lisa Gardner, particularly in terms of when they started writing, which was as late teenagers. Um, Lisa Unger, you know, she kind of said she started her first book at 19, but it took her 10 years to get it right, but it landed her, it was her first published book, ended up being her first published book, and landed her a two-book deal. And she was kind of off to the races at that point. Um, but we we had a far-reaching conversation about um about the writing process, about book launches, about being extroverted, about versus introverted, about what's the worst part of writing and and how you know, if you don't have the joy behind it all, you're not going to succeed because writing is such a difficult thing to do and to sustain over a long period of time, that if you don't have an underlying passion for it that won't be present all the time, then it's you know, that's how people quit. Um, so it was she you can see her unbridled love of writing, despite all the slings and arrows associated with writing and launching a book. You can just hear, you know, she's proclaims it, but you can actually hear it in her voice, like how much she loves to write. And I think the key word that she repeated often was gratitude. Just look at what I get to do, look at what we get to do. It's it's it's amazing. So it's a very inspirational um episode, and I think you're going to love it. This is my conversation with Lisa Unger. I don't know if we've actually ever met. You know, I see you at at Thriller Fest all the time.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Um yeah, I'm like a blur at Thriller Fest, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:33

I'm like but you have like some responsibility. You can't be too much of a blur.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Well, yeah, I mean, I don't I don't have as much responsibility as it might seem. I really just kind of show up and like flip my hair and take a lot of selfies and do a lot of talking. Like that's sort of my role. Kim is really and the the staff of ITW, like they do all the hard work, and Greg and I just show up and yeah, talk a lot.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

So maybe maybe we'll talk about this a little bit because I'm always curious. Um, because I'm a huge proponent of community for authors. Yes, absolutely. You know, I was going to Thrillerfest and BoucherCon well before I was published. So for the last 20 years, and you you go that first time, you're like, oh my god, there's yeah, there's other writers. Yeah. Um, but then you develop these friendships and you and and now you're you and Greg Hurwitz are co-presidents of ITW. Um, so just when did you kind of realize, like, oh, I need people in my life here?

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've maybe I've always kind of known that, you know, I well, I started off in publishing. So my first job in in ever, like as a real adult human, was in publishing. So I've been in publishing since I was 22 years old.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

What was that first job?

SPEAKER_00 6:52

I was a book publicist.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Yeah. So, and you know, I was a like kind of a closet writer, like a secret writer. You know, I've been writing since I was a kid, and yeah, I'd kind of a, you know, my dad was an engineer, you know, so I was like, Dad, can I be a writer? And he's like, uh, no, no, no, I'm nuts. That's not a job. Like, people don't do that. I was like, Yeah, I guess you're right. So I didn't really have the confidence to pursue what I knew I already was. It was like kind of the closest I could get. And so I feel like I've always had this sense of publishing as like this community, you know, it took me a really long time in the industry to realize, like, oh, you know what, this is a real job. In fact, it's such a real job that an entire industry has sprung around it to support its promotion. And so, like, I think that's kind of why I was in publishing and I learned so much about the business. But then, you know, as a writer, and even at that point in my life, like I'm an introvert. So I'm an extreme introvert, right? Like that is, and all that means is it doesn't mean that I'm shy or that I can't talk, I can't hang out. It just means that I am nourished by solitude. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Your social battery drains very quickly at those events.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Yeah, they absolutely do. And I've had to actually like sort of work at, you know, finding ways to, you know, recharge my batteries while I'm on the road, while I'm at conferences and stuff like that. So that's like something that a skill set that I've had to develop over the years. But like, you know, I when I first started out, there was MWA, you know, um, ITW didn't come until much later. Right. And when I started out, MWA was like, you know, there was the BoucherCon, which is not MWA, but everybody thinks it's MWA, it's its own thing. So BoucherCon was like the big mystery conference. And, you know, the community that exists now with ITW for thriller writers did not, it just did not exist at that time.

unknown 8:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

You know, so it was very much so like, you know, um, you're you're very much so like that idea of like the author alone in a room and then you're out on the road and then you go back to your room, right? Like that's kind of like how it was. And then, you know, the MWA community was like, you know, not at the time, I don't feel like it was as cohesive as the ITW community is.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

And then it, you know, ITW kind of bursts on the scene. It was like a, you know, like kind of the the um the idea of Gail Lynns and David Morel, who, you know, felt a little bit as thriller writers a little bit apart from like the traditional MWA mystery world.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Right, because they're different, they're different styles, it's not necessarily something to solve. It's just right, it's a story.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Exactly. And so it's um, you know, so that it kind of sprung up from there, and then you know, I became involved with it pretty early on, and then it was I've been the co-president now for for six for six years, yeah. And what I'll say about ITW is just that it's just the nicest community of people. Like we're so nice to each other, we love each other, we support each other. ITW the whole mission of ITW is to to educate and support authors at every level of the of their career, whether you're an aspiring writer or whether you're you know very successful in your career or you're in the middle of your career, whatever it is, there is something for you there in terms of education, support, networking, community, all of that. So I feel very passionately about you know my time there as co-president with Greg. He's, you know, uh, we've been both he's been there like I guess I think this might be his seventh year. This is my sixth year. Yeah. And, you know, we've we've made a lot of changes, we've, you know, we've weathered some some storms. And I think that we've just, you know, helped to contribute to a community that is very strong and supportive for for all authors.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

And I think supportive is the right word. So I I work with Elena Hartwell and Bob D'Goney on the with the debuts. And I remember when I debuted in 2012, like I couldn't believe everything that then this is way back then, what they would do for us. And and and I think I'm seeing that now with debuts, like, oh, there's a there's a separate dinner where you're gonna go practice our speakers.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

There's like a whole thing, yeah. I mean, and I think it's like especially for I mean the debuts, it's fantastic for, but I also think like like you were saying, like when you're first starting out, when you're a writer and you haven't published your first book, you know, and you don't you don't know anything, you don't know anything, you don't know any other writers, right? Like there's literally if you're gonna spend your money on anything, right? It's literally the best thing that you could do for yourself is to come to these conferences because to Thriller Fest and you know, BoucherCon and other things, because this is where you find your peeps.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yeah, and but you you get out what you put in, right? So so as as a self-proclaimed, you know, severe introvert, that's pretty common, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Amongst our if you weren't an introvert, you're not a writer. I'm sorry, writer.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

And so, but I talked to all these people like I don't know if I want to go because I'm just gonna stand there. And a lot of people do just go and stand there. Yeah, so you do have to push put yourself out there. And once you've talked to one person, you realize like it is a pretty fantastic community, but yes, it scares a lot of people to do that.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Of course, and it is scary, it's scary like anything. It's like, you know, first kid, you know, you're a kid at your first day at school, right? Right, it's scary, but like I I will say specifically about Thrillerfest, and I can attest to this, is that we actually have a buddy program. So if you're coming to Thrillerfest and you're like terrified, you know, we will find somebody to hang out with you, right? Totally, totally. And we will definitely do that. And that also, you know, it's it's just some some moments, you know, there's always these moments on your journey as a writer where you kind of have to push yourself out of your comfort zone a little bit, right? Like there's a moment where you know, you finished your book and you've edited and re-edited and sent it off to a professional editor and you've done this like 10 times and like it's literally like it's as good as it's gonna get, guys, right? Like it's not getting any better. Sorry. It's time to send it out and get some real feedback and get, you know, get that, you know, if if it happens, you know, that that sting of rejection and you know, you know, all the feelings that come with that, and then get over it and do it again, right? Like these moments where you have to push yourself out of your comfort zone. And the the thriller fest, I you know, writers' conference doesn't have to be thriller fest, any writer's conference that provides an opportunity for you to meet with agents and editors and other writers. I mean, that's the moment to be like, okay, if I really want to do this, I have to a little bit just do something I'm not sure I can do or want to do. I want to do it, but I'm scared, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Like you will always look back with gratitude. I mean, it's one of the reasons I started the podcast. So now, whatever, 220 episodes in, I'm like, now I've met all these people, now I've had engaging, in-depth conversations, exactly, and it's helped me with my writing, with my community, and it makes all the difference in the world. Um, so yes, jumping over real quick, I know we're a week away from your next book launch. That's right, and I don't want to downplay it, but you have had a lot of book launches. Does it feel any different? Does it get any easier? Is the level of excitement sustained?

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yes, absolutely. You know, like I never have wanted to do anything else except write ever, like since I was a kid, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Where did that come from, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Oh well, my mom was a librarian.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

And so I was a reader first. I think all we all writers are readers first, of course, you know, like, and I was a very advanced reader and we moved around a lot. You know, my dad worked for Exxon, so we were kind of always moving. And I was always like the new kid. I was always like in the margins, you know, not quite part of wherever I was. And so I always had a notebook and I always had a book.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

This is the stereotypical writer origin story, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Exactly, of course. And it's like I can every it doesn't matter how lost you are, if you open the pages of a book, you're you're found, right? If you open your notebook, you're you're found. That's how I have always felt. So I've never wanted to do anything else, you know. And um, I am just honestly filled with gratitude that when my book comes, my when the first found book comes every year, it's like Christmas Day. I'm like, you know, eight years old and it's Christmas Day, right? It's like, oh my God.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Yeah, even though you've seen the arcs, it's still different.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Right, it's totally different, you know, and you know it's in stores. And then I, you know, and and the book is gonna launch, and so it doesn't, I don't think anything about it get ever gets any easier. You know, there's always like the nerve, the, you know, like, oh my god, you know, it's it's launch time, also the introvert nerves, right? Like, oh my god, I'm going out on the road, what's gonna happen? And then, you know, just like the writing process and stuff like I, you know, I've this is my 23rd book. I'm right now I'm reading my 25th book. My 24th book will come out next year. And I'm, you know, every every time I sit down to write, I'm like, wait, do I know how to do this?

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Is it is it like childbirth where you kind of forget how difficult it is?

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah, I remember how to do this, but you know, that too is also a little bit of a joke because like for me, the blank page is like it's all joy, you know. The that white of the page is like it's a full universe, anything, it's the portal to everything.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

It's a 60,000 word mark where you're like, is this so invested at this point?

SPEAKER_00 16:50

I'm so deep in, I cannot get out. Yes, it's absolutely true. So it doesn't really ever get easier, it doesn't get less exciting. It it doesn't get, you know, it's it's always like a big, it's always a big moment for me when a book is coming out. I'm always like, I don't ever want to lose that gratitude, you know. I don't ever want to lose that awe of the process, right? You know, I didn't I feel like if I lost like if I didn't sit down to my to the page with joy and awe and like wow, here we go again. Like I think maybe it's time to hang it up. If it gets easy and you're dialing it in, maybe you should just stop.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Totally. And yeah, I can't envision a world where it ever gets easy. I I think the physical, for me, the physical act of writing gets easier. Like once I know what I'm doing, getting the words on the page, yeah. At first it's terrible because you just don't know how to craft sentences. And after a while, you're like, you have that muscle memory. But I think that that joy that you talk about. I mean, I preach that all the time. And that's not to be confused with the fact that it's not joyous all the time. Of course it's not.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Of course not.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

It's the joy that makes all the terrible parts worthwhile.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

It's the foundation, right? Right. It's the foundation of it. Like, we are so lucky to get to do this. It's amazing, right? Right, it's amazing. I know, and to like have written, you know, 23 books, have 23 books out in the in the world, and you know, however many people that is that has read them, and then you know, there's like that moment where you know, like your book leaves you, right? Like, and it goes out into the world and it belongs to somebody else, right? Like you write a book, and a reader picks up the book, and the reader brings all of their stuff to the book and it becomes their book, right? And like there's such a there, I mean, we're so lucky. I just feel lucky to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Totally. And and I think the balance, and I think the really difficult thing, and I'm sure this was part of your life too, early on. You still had a job, I'm sure. It's very few people who like that first book. They're like, I'm quitting my job, and this is my career for the next 60 years. For sure, is finding that joy in the slog of years and years and years of, yeah, I'm making some money, it's not enough to support me, but I'm getting published, which is amazing. Right. But, you know, I hear somebody like Lisa who, you know, I want her life, you know, and and very few people get to that point. And so you have to let go of that idea and embrace what you do have, which is your imagination and your your consistency.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah, I was at Sleuthfest, which is an another great writing conference, mystery, MWA conference. And um, you know, Neil Nyron, he's like a legendary editor, was there and he's he's retired now, but he loves coming to conferences and like offering his you know expertise to people and stuff. And he gave a speech that you know I I thought was really I was resonant for me. I I I hope it was resonant for everybody who was there because like I think people think that that publishing contract, that first publishing contract is a windfall, right? It's the end of the story, right? But it's not. I mean, for most of us, it's the beginning of the story. All it is is an open door to the writing life, right? And if you want to succeed, because you know, just bad news is it's harder to succeed as a published writer than it is to get published in the first place. Yeah, and so if you're gonna walk through that door, you're gonna roll up your sleeves and get to work like everything, everybody else who wants to do anything well in this life. And in his speech, he said, you know, be happy now. Yeah, don't be happy when I get my book contract. Don't be happy when I, you know, get my first, you know, great review. Don't be happy when I hit the best when you hit the bestseller list, when you're booked to film. Like, don't be happy then, right? Be happy now.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Because now is all we really have.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

It is, it is well, it is, it's it really is.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

So I mean my first book, so my first three didn't sell, even though they were agented. My fourth book, which finally sold, the advance was two thousand dollars, but I only got half of that because the publisher went out of business, like six months after my book came out.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

That's about right, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Totally. It's like it's such a great trope of a story, exactly. And but I'm like, but I have a physical book that was in at the time borders, and I could show it to my kids, and just the excitement of that, and now you know, so how do you how do you keep holding on to that? And I remember thinking, like, my own my goal is not to get big, my goal is just to get bigger, like every book just to get a little bit bigger. Um, whatever that means, I don't know. Whatever that means, it could mean a lot of different things, it could mean a lot of different things, but just like you know, because that I do see a lot of people who have major breakouts and then they just disappear because. It's whatever they and out of their control, too. But it all boils back down to that you have to love this because it's it's brutal. People would kill to get that thousand dollar advance just to be published, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Exactly a hundred percent. And and I yeah, I feel the same. Like when I my first book got published, the St. Martin's Press. My so I started my first novel when I was 19.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

And it took me until I was 29 to finish it, you know, because you know, I had that whole journey, you know, of like, oh, I can't do this. I'm I'm not this.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

So I am what never been anything else. What kind of book was that? Was so you were writing back then like thriller suspense?

SPEAKER_00 22:39

I was, and I so it took me 10 years to finish that book, and then um that was the first book that published. So it found an I found an agent, you know, pretty quickly, and uh she brokered a two-book deal with St. Martin's Press. And so I always say, Oh, for my first advance was like a nickel and a cheese sandwich. And Ace Atkins always says, Oh wow, oh, you got a cheese sandwich.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

And then it took me, you know, a a long time. I mean, it was I would say it wasn't until Beautiful Eyes, which was like, you know, the which was my two 20, uh, my oh my god, 2000 2006 book that I actually started making money. So it was like six books. Oh yeah, no, my where I was still like I was still, I mean, I was writing freelance, I was doing freelance public relations and freelance public relations writing, but I did, you know, at one point, like I went to Key West, I met my husband. It was like love at first sight. We both quit our big big corporate jobs. I sold my home in Brooklyn Heights, and I gave myself one year because I had finished my novel already. So I gave myself one year to write another book and to sell the one I had written. I was like, this is my go-for-broke moment.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

So I'd already kind of gone for broke, actually.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Yeah, it was it's funny how that works out. I I mean, that is not a super uncommon story. JD Barker has a very similar story. He's like, this has to work in the next 18 months, or we're gonna have to sell the house. And you know, that kind of logic usually doesn't make any sense at all when you're talking about the publishing industry because you as an author are in control of very little.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Oh, yeah, nothing. So all you're in control of is what you do on the page. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Right. So it's you know, you're manifesting it somehow, and and and it works out, which is amazing. When you so now, and I know you have a lot of obligations with with book tours and things like that. Do you get to the point where you're like, you know, I don't want to as an introvert, I don't want to do X, Y, and Z anymore, or do you just embrace it as part of the business, or do you embrace it because for the for the brief moments you love it?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yeah, yes. To all of that. I mean, there are things about being on stage and having conversations like this, and you know, all of that. There are things that I love, you know, about it. You know, I love and I do love connecting with readers and booksellers and librarians and like hanging out with those people because those are the people, right? Those are the book people, right? Like we're, you know, it's so there's a joy to that. Um, I, you know, I do embrace a lot of it as part of the job. You know, I never forget that 90% of my job, 100%, maybe 110 is just the writing. Yeah, but that there's this other piece that exists now that did not exist when I was first published in 2002, right? Like there's all uh like everything's different. Like when I was visibility, you mean there is not, yeah, my visibility, but also social media, right, and all of it, which was like not even like a thing, like no, it didn't even exist. There wasn't even a smartphone in 2002.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

I mean, so like the whole business has changed. So I do tend to embrace it as part of of what I do because it is to some degree um a benefit, a positive that you have this thing that you can do to yourself, do for yourself for the books. And you and yet, you know, you have to be really careful because social media is the enemy of creativity, it masquerades it as work, but it is not work. And we are writers, we are not influencers. So it's important to always remember that use it as a tool, but don't let it use you. Don't imagine, you know, if you've sat down to write, but instead you, you know, you posted something on Instagram or whatever, like you just didn't write.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Totally. And the writing has to, the writing is your job, and the other parts are are your job as well, but the writing, nothing happens without the writing, right? I think all that being said, though, you're in a different position as somebody whose debut is coming out this year.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Of course, because I I contend that, you know, so legacy authors, I think so. However, you want to define that, maybe 15 books or more, strong national recognition. Um I think it's important that they're visible. But somebody just starting out, I think it's critical because there's so there's so much noise now that having some kind of authenticity be present. Like I can I can see this person now, they're on social media, I know what they look like, I hear their voice. That's important for me to get to know them as an author, as opposed to somebody who was already a known entity.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Right. Um, and and I understand and I see that and I understand that, but I still I would still put out there that yes, it's important. This is our, this is the modern, this is the world of modern publishing, right? And uh marketing and social media is part of it now. I mean, for authors, whereas once upon a time it wasn't, it wasn't part of your job as an author, it is now, and you know, and yes, you can make yourself visible, you can do a lot for yourself as a as a writer, but I would just say that it's the kind if if character is king in fiction, and it certainly is, then in social media content is king. So you have to find a way to be authentic within an inauthentic platform so that then people come to you and then come to your work, they're they're having the full the full experience of you that they've maybe discovered you through social media and then they picked up your book and they loved your book.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Because if they discovered you on social media and they pick up your book and they don't love your book, they're not following you on social media and they're not reading your book. Right, right, exactly like so nobody comes to your work and stays the work is compelled.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Right, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

And people act in their own self-interest only. So they're not buying your book to do you a favor, right? They're buying your book because they're buying a book because they're a reader and they want that experience of whatever it is they're looking for, whether it's romance or thriller or mystery or whatever it is, they've come to it, you know, because they're readers and they want to read something great. And if they don't get that, then they're not coming back. So yeah, that so that means to me, like you can do your due diligence with the things that are out there. And yes, maybe you do need a platform. You know, maybe as you say, it's critical, it may be, but it's also critical that you're a really good writer and you're writing a good book.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

And the cynical side of that, which unfortunately I've seen happen more than once, is somebody is a TikTok sensation and a publisher says you should write a book. Sure. And we're gonna get you on the times list, and you'll probably never be heard from again. But in the meantime, that was fun.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

In the meantime, yay, for you.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

I mean, I know, and I don't that's I don't think it happens a lot, but I've seen that happen. And they do, they hit the times list and it does.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

You're right.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

So it's it's frustrating for people who are trying to hit that list and really work on their craft day, day after day, but you also kind of can't blame them.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

But I think it's different. I think there I always think of them, and I and I of course, I mean, there's a million people that we could point to, and you would go, What? We're certainly not gonna name any names, but like it, but it's okay because for me, well, for me, I'll say it's okay because that's not what I'm doing, right? You know, like I've been doing I'm doing the same thing I was doing when I was eight years old, right? Like I'm living inside story and character, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Like that, that is what I'm doing. And I I am actually writing a book, an authentic book that comes from my center, yeah. And it is it is indivisible from who I am as a person, what I what I do. And I I'm I'm happy when things succeed, and I'm I'm grateful that they have and that I have you know been able to make my living doing what I love. It's it's a true gift. It's but it's like it's all about the writing, it's all about the writing and the page and the characters and the story, like for me, yeah, and that I'm better every day than I was yesterday. Like I believe that every day I can sit down and be a better writer than I was yesterday, and that's where I try to live. Because if you live in the other space, that is not a good dark, that is not a good space for anybody at any level.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

From the moment you sit down to write the first word of a book to the moment you finish the tour of that release. Oh, what's your least favorite part of that whole journey?

SPEAKER_00 31:56

What's my least favorite part of the whole journey?

SPEAKER_01 31:58

If you say the show, then I'm gonna hang up.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah, yeah. Goodbye, Carter. I gotta go. Yeah, it's been so tiring.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

It's this moment right now.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

It's right now. I would say, what's my least favorite part of the process? I would say the like the weeks, like right before I go on the road. Cause I'm so like like the logistical act of of a hauling my human body onto the road, yeah, is like I don't even like to go on vacation. Like that, like when I when I have a trip coming up, like the weeks before I go on a trip, I have a basket case. I'm a literal basket case, like, oh my god, I don't have any clothes. What about my hair? Like, you know, how I can't do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Are you a highly organized person and you you feel like things need to be that's a control thing a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Um yeah, maybe that's a little bit, that's a little bit of it. It's just I think it's an introvert thing. I think it's like, you know how like the extrovert has an underactive nervous system, right? And they need a lot of input to feel well, right? The introvert has an overactive nervous system, which is why they need a lot less input, right? Like more input is a bad thing. Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

You just want to be a sensory deprivation tank.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Exactly. Any kind of travel or mobilization thing is really a lot for me. Like, even if it's like a like a vacation. So that's like probably my least, that's probably my least favorite part of it. But then once I'm on the road, I'm good. Like once I once I'm sitting in the the seat, the plane, I'm on the plane for that first thing, I'm I'm fine.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

And it's and when you like going back to gratitude, you know, I worked for for a long time in the corporate environment where you would go on the road and it was like you had crazy responsibilities, you had massive presentations to give, you had things you were trying to sell, whatever. When you're on the road for your book, you just get to talk about the stuff that makes you happy and to people who want to hear it.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

I'm not like making a PowerPoint presentation and like trying to like get to you know, like get my boss to give my project, like whatever. Like it's yes, it's like I and it's a little bit, you know, like from when like last year I did two full weeks. So it was like a flight every morning and an event every night for two weeks. Yeah. That's a little bit. That's a little, that's a lot. But you know, again, like thank God anybody wants to anybody wants to come hear me talk about right.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

My the the only thing that gets in my head, because I I I like to travel even though it can be exhausting. I I get worried that I'm gonna get sick. I'm like, what if I get sick right before this big thing? I got back from Thriller Fest last year and I rarely get sick, and I was so sick.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Oh, were you sick? I heard that from a lot of people that got sick.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Yeah, something was going on. I was really in bad shape. Like the way unfortunately I didn't have anything after that, but it's like, yeah, no, you know, because you're trying to hear people and you can't, so you're talking right in their leaning in and they're like and all you're just getting everything. So that's that's the that's the point.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

I mean, those parties are like, oh my god, those big receptions, yeah, those rooms that are just like I mean, hundreds and hundreds of people. And it's like for me, you know, because I've been in publishing since I was 22 years old, like I mean, all these conferences that are like weddings, like I there are people there that I've known like all my adult life, you know, who are like hugging everybody and like you know, it's like, oh my god, you know, like all this, it's just like a lot of exuberance and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

But it's exhaust like Elena and I we established on the Thursday night cocktail, we have a table that we have with a sign so that the debut authors, if they don't know anyone, just we'll be here, we'll be standing at this table.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. That's great.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

And that's actually fun because then you're not walking around and just getting pulled into every conversation, but it's also exhausting in its own right. Because yeah, absolutely shepherd they do be. But again, it's all great, it's not you're not at right.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

You can't like it's not like it just because anything was exhausting doesn't mean that it was bad. No, right, like quite the opposite. Like, I mean, every but if you're an introvert, everything is exhausting, everything except like lying in a sensory deprivation chamber.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

So, how are you? I assume you've been with the same editor for a number of books.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Yes, I've been with my editor at Park Row, which is part of HarperCollins. I think this is our let me let me look. I'm gonna look at my shelf. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. This is our eighth book together. We just finished our nine, we just finished our ninth book together. And number 25 will be our 10th, our tenth book together. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

How are you? Because one of the one of the I mean it's with everybody when you get the developmental edits, it's exciting because you have somebody who is very smart pointing out some things that are going to make your book more amazing. Yeah. But it's also like, oh my God, this is going to be a couple months of work. And it's over. How are you at this point in terms of your relationship and dealing with developmental edits?

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Oh, we have a great relationship. Um, my uh my editor is a she's an amazing she's an amazing person. She's incredibly smart, she's really gets me. Um, she's you know, been amazing, and I've always been really lucky. I've always had just great editors, yeah. Like really, really good people. And I mean, I again, you know, it's kind of like the same thing with you know, the social media and the marketing. I just view that as part of my job. You know, it's like that's part of the that's the second part of the creative process for me. And then at this point in my career, you know, like I mean, I don't think any author doesn't need an editor. Every author needs an editor. I'm just gonna say plenty of authors think they don't need an editor, but I promise you they do.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

And more than like the hired copy editor, a full developmental.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Yeah, you need somebody to read your two, if you're if you've really written an authentic book, you're too close. You know, you need somebody to go, oh, I didn't get this. Oh, what about this? Oh, I, you know, I wanted more of this character. Oh, this, you know, this thing on the page didn't work for me. Like you want to have those conversations. Like, I do want to have those conversations with somebody. So for me, it's like that is the second second part of the process. Like, if you and then I at this stage of you know, my writing career, like I know when something's great, I know when there's a great change. I'm like, I because I can feel it. I'm like, oh right, yes, that's great. Or I can feel like I don't know, I don't know about that. But I will say that if I have that feeling, I know that it's time to do a little detective work. Right? Because like if something didn't work and I think it's working and my editor doesn't think is working, then it might not be the thing, it might be the thing underneath the thing that isn't working. Do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 38:48

So like exactly what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

So you have to do a little bit of why didn't it work for her? You know, why didn't you know, why didn't she get this piece? And so like I can do that detective work and I can be very um, you know, uh excited about that, I guess is the word. Like not like, you know, not excited, like whatever, like nobody ever wants to do more work, but it's it's still like um it's still like this. Oh sorry, this is my daughter, she knows how to break through my do not do that's quite all right. Did you hear the stranger did you hear the stranger?

SPEAKER_01 39:25

I didn't actually hear it at all, so you're good.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

She's you know, so I really do feel like it's it's an essential part of the process.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

It may not always be a a pleasant part of the process, but it is an essential part of the process, and I factor that in to my to my year, right? Knowing that I'm gonna be doing uh I'm gonna do like and also you know, I have I do multiple drafts before I ever turn in.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

So so I I just consider it part of I consider it part of the of the um the the job.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

It's such a profound opportunity because when the book's out there, you can't defend your book to readers, right? It's there, it's they take it however they want to take it. But with an editor, you can say, well, this was my intention. I guess it didn't come through. And then they understand, like, okay, well, you just need to tease this out more, right? And now you can change it. So it's it's yeah, it's exciting as you can.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

It is exciting, and it's you know, and I understand that, like, you know, it it can be difficult, but it is part of it, and it's like I always see it as being like, you know, when I turn my book in, I know it's the best that I can do. It literally is the pinnacle of my ability, right? I can't do any better, and I need somebody to read it, right? And then that's the moment where it goes from being the best that I can do to the best that it can be, right? And that is that's a great thing. That's an important thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

And it's it that's a total lack of ego, which is so important because yeah, even the best that I can do doesn't mean it's great. No, it just means it's the best I can do at this point in my life. Next year it might be even better, right? Um, but yeah, and pairing that with the ability as we to bring this full circle, what you said at the beginning was kind of the ability to let go, to be like, it's look, you know, I I could keep working on this for another five years and I could make it three percent better.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Or I can let go, or you can let go get it out there and write something else because the next thing ostensibly should be better, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Right, right. You needed this book to write that book.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

It's like you went to school when you wrote this book. Now write another book. And then again and again and again, right? Like it's your it's your education.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

Totally, totally. Well, Lisa, we're gonna wrap up before we do. We're gonna do a real quick storytelling.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

I know you were really I'm gonna freeze.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

I always say all we're gonna do, you're gonna we're gonna pick a random book, we're gonna pick a random sentence, and gonna read that sentence, and that'll be the first sentence in like a two-minute long short story. We'll just alternate sentences. It'll be terrible, it'll be great. Um, I have three books, you get to choose one of them. Um I have Karen Slaughter's This Is Why We Lied.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Uh Chris Pavone's The Doorman.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

And Elise Hartkipness' uh Dangerous Play.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Choose one of those.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Well, they're all three of them are my friends, so that's also really hard.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Well, we we're we're not trying to honor their work. We can do whatever we want.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Oh, oh, okay. Uh Chris, Chris Pavone.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

We can do whatever we want with this. Um, so give me a number between one and three hundred and eighty-six.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Uh 70.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Okay, so I'm gonna quickly look at pages.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

I was gonna say 69, but I thought that was a little bit like T risque.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

You could have done whatever you wanted to do. Um all right, so we can do whatever we want. I'm gonna just pick out a uh sentence right here. Um, this is just somebody named Julian. Um Julian tried to push away his spinning worries, tried to force his attention back to the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Um but the woman he kept talking to kept staring at him seductively, and he became even more worried and even started to break a sweat a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

He twisted his wedding band around and around his finger, hoping that it would be obvious to her. And he was sure it was, but that didn't seem to stop her at all.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

In fact, it only seemed to excite her, and she moved in closer, and she moved in so close that he could smell the fancy.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

He couldn't deny that it was intoxicating in its own way. But what he really hoped was that she would similarly note the heavy garlic on his breath and be repulsed. We can call it there if you want.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

That's good. Let's leave it at the garlic.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

What was going to happen? I don't think anything was going to happen.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

I was going to say that, you know, like maybe, well, I mean, it would have only repulsed her really, like truly, if she was a vampire. So then I was like, I was ready to go vampire on that.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Right, vampire or just what what she seemed to want was certainly not what was the actual case.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

What she wanted was Marinara.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Well, Lisa, congrats on on the eminent release of um Serve Him Right, which is out just next week. Thank you. And uh, you know, I hope all those that book tour goes great and you you have all that uh introvert energy to sustain you through it.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Well, thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

It's been such a we'll see you at Thriller Fest.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

All right, see you at Thrillerfest. Take care. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

All right, that is it. That is my conversation with Lisa Unger. Um, her new book is called Served Him Right. So make sure to check that out. And if you want to find out everything you you can about Lisa, just go to our website, Lisaunger.com. You can head on over to CarterWilson.com to learn about my books, more episodes, watch more episodes of this podcast, join in my newsletter, all that good stuff. And you can head on over to unboundwriter.com if you're interested in private writing coaching or any of the seminars, workshops, or retreats that I offer. All right. All right, friends, that is it. That is it for this episode of Making It Up. I appreciate you watching andor listening to it. Another episode, of course, out just next week in the meantime. As always, take care.