Making It Up with Corinne Sullivan, author of Yours Always

"A lot of it is learning to trust your reader too. I feel like I'm tempted to do a lot of handholding when I write... and you have to go through with a red pen after and say, 'Okay, what is really not needed? What can the reader figure out on their own?' ... You're not writing books for idiots, so don't act like they're idiots." — Corinne Sullivan 

Corinne Sullivan is the senior news editor at Cosmopolitan, where she covers celebrity and entertainment news. She graduated from Boston College in 2014 with a degree in English and creative writing. She went on to receive her MFA in fiction from Sarah Lawrence College. Her stories have appeared in literary magazines such as Night Train, Knee-Jerk, and Pithead Chapel, among other publications, and her 2018 debut novel, Indecent, was included on several "best of" lists.

Among other things, Corinne and Carter discuss trying to become an editorial assistant after getting her MFA, lessons on the writing industry that Corinne has learned from being a senior news editor at Cosmopolitan, and how descriptive writing can slow a story down. At the end of their conversation, they make up a suspenseful story using a line from BJ Magnani’s We’ll Always Have Poison. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Friends, hello. This is Carter and welcome to this episode of Making It Up, the podcast where two writers sit down and talk about whatever comes to mind. Um, before I get to today's guests, uh, just a quick note um, you should buy my new book. We we talked on the podcast today about being salesy and how hard it is for being visible and promoting your book and not feeling gross about it. But I'm telling you right now, you should buy my upcoming book, When They Find Me. It releases November 10th. Um, and it's getting great reviews already. I the PR team is already releasing a lot of uh uh advanced reader copies into the wild, and we're getting a lot of great feedback, it's getting some buzz. Target is going to have an exclusive edition of this book, and I am telling you, I am begging you and pleading with you that if you pre-order a book, it will make a big difference. Pre-orders are really important to authors, um, mostly because you know, all those sales get counted to your first week sales. So if you can get a bunch of pure pre-orders in and it has a strong opening week, you know, that really helps towards making um certain bestseller lists. Um, and and it's just such a nice thing to do. You know, if if publishers start to see a lot of pre-orders in on the books, that's that's a good sign for indie bookstores, for example, to order more copies. Um, so it's all kind of a a process. Um, so it's called When They Find Me. It's a creepy book. It takes place over five hours during a blizzard two days before Christmas in this remote mountain town in Colorado. Um, and if you want to know everything about it, just go to my website, carterwilson.com. You can see a link to it. Um, it's on the home page right there. Um, but anyway, that is my plug. Usually I plug Unbound writers. Today I'm I'm plugging my actual books. Um, all right, so today's show. Today I had on the show Corinne Sullivan. So Corinne is a senior news editor at Cosmopolitan Magazine. She's right there in New York City. Uh she spends her career observing and writing about relationships in real time, like celebrity breakups, dating trends, parasocial crushes. Um and as a novelist, she is tapping into not only that zeitgeist, but offers a darker mirror of what she reports on, which is kind of the emotional fallout of her, of those um glossy headlines. Uh, so she has a new book out, just released in April of this year called Yours Always from Thomas and Mercer, uh, creepy, creepy, creepy thriller. Um, and she's got another one coming out either late 2027 or early 2028. And it was interesting, really, talking to her because she really went the route from a child saying, I'm going to be a writer, I'm going to figure this out, you know, undergraduate degree in English, got an MFA, um wrote three books that never went anywhere, finally had one that sold, um, and then that was more in the literary fiction kind of realm, and then pivoted towards suspense thriller, knowing that not only was that something that she wanted to write, but also knowing that um, you know, it probably had a better shot um at being sold, um just because of how competitive the landscape is. You know, people are always looking for that really pit, they call it pitchy, pitchy thriller. Um, and she certainly had the chops to execute that. And that became yours always, which which um has done very well for Thomas and Mercer. But there's a lot in here where we had a lot in common in terms of how we write, when we write. You know, she's got a full-time job with two little, little, little kids at home. Um, and I certainly have experienced that as well. Um, so trying to find the time to write, we talked a lot about imposter syndrome, a lot about the difficulty of calling oneself a writer. How do you define what success is as a writer? Are the goldposts constantly moving? And if so, is that artificial? And should you just be grateful that you have anything published? Um, so it was a good conversation. We kind of went into the weeds on it a little bit. And then uh at the end, we made up a quirky little story, as we always do on this show. Uh, this is a great one, especially if you're looking for insights on craft and perseverance. This is my interview with Corinne Sullivan. So, where are the Cosmo headquarters in New York? I have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Yes, we're in Columbus Circle, so right by Central Park, which is got a great view from the office.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Oh, very nice. I just um interviewed Kate White the other day. Oh, no way. So there's this like weird Cosmo, cosmopolitan thing going on here. How long have you worked there for?

SPEAKER_02 5:10

It's been about four years now.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Okay. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, I was looking at your bio, and and you're very you your bio is very much somebody who's like, I'm gonna be a writer. And and that's it's funny, like after interviewing so many people, I realized like that's actually the less common path is somebody who's actually studies it. Usually people like like myself kind of fall into it and have no idea what they're doing. Um, but I it feels from reading about you that that this is kind of what you've wanted to do, and you've been adjacent to novel writing for a while, and then you kind of dove in.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

I would say since I was five years old, I always knew I want to write. I just don't know in what capacity. You know, the goal is was always to write books, but you know, that doesn't always pan out. That's a that's a tough thing to pursue. So I want to be creative, I want to write, and whatever that looks like, I will find a way.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

So where do you think that comes from, though? Because a lot of people say that on the show, and it's I always think it's worth pausing to kind of reflect on it a little bit. That I, you know, as a kid, you're like, I want to write. You know, as I as you know, when I was a kid, I wanted to either be a cartoonist or I wanted to, you know, you write TV shows, or but that all just felt like in the ether. Like, I don't know how these things are even done. So to have some kind of focus put towards that was there something, is it in the family? Was there something like this is what I want to study and I'm gonna take this seriously? Like, I don't know where that came from.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

I really don't either. My parents are always wondering. They're not creatives. We really don't have any creative, not to say that my family is not creative, but you know, we don't have any, my parents are not sculptors, artists, but they really fostered this love of books in me. I would go to the library with my parents all the time. I was always reading. They would encourage me, you know, you really like this author. Why don't you send them a letter? And I was always just finding ways to get my hands on books. And at a certain point, I started to try and create myself. I would take books that I admired and do my own version of it.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yeah, that's so there's something about like the love of story and storytelling. It but it to me, it's always just such a leap to like, oh, I can do that. Um, but enough for you at least to realize like maybe this is what I want to study. Um when how old were we how old were you when you realized it's a horrible industry to be in?

SPEAKER_02 7:52

I'm learning every day.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yes, yes, it's not that's a very cynical view. It's but you said it earlier, it's very tough.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Yeah, it's tough. Like when I chose an English major in college, I knew this isn't going to be easy. And then when I continued, when I really leaned in and got my MFA in fiction, I'm like, I'm digging my hole deeper, but I know this is what I want. And so I feel like the path to getting there is to study it as much as I can and really hone my craft and then just hope for the best.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah, I mean that hope is a big part of it for sure. I mean, and I even think like, you know, choosing an English undergraduate degree, you know, the country is littered with English degrees for of people who are working in IT now. Um it's it feels like you know, it's not that purposeful unless you do like have that intent of I'm I'm digging that hole, I'm getting my MFA. This is where I want to go. What was your MFA experience like? Did it crystallize things or did it make things maybe even more opaque?

SPEAKER_02 8:55

It probably the latter. I while I was getting my MFA, I'm like, my time here is limited. At a certain point, I can no longer be the student. I'm going to have to get a job.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

And so I spent most of my time while I was also writing, trying to figure out what the next step would look like. I volunteered at a high school nearby to see if, okay, maybe teaching's for me. Quickly realized teaching is not for me. Nope, this isn't it.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Just the whole kid thing.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

No, the kids are terrifying. Like, Snapchat. I'm like, no. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

I mean, every now and then I'll teach like a fourth grade class on storytelling. And I I'm exhausted. I don't know how you do this all day long, these teachers, the the walls that they have to build around their skin to for all just the the hyperactivity.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

No, absolutely not for me. So then I just tried a series of internships. I interned at a couple of literary agencies at a couple of publishing houses, and just trying to find my way into the book world, even if I wasn't writing the books myself. So I knew I wanted to be book adjacent.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yeah, yeah. So that's and I and I've always heard that even those internships are tough to get into, they're highly coveted, they're very competitive. Uh, was that your experience?

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Yes. I tried for years to get a position as an editorial assistant at any publishing house, did so many editorial tests, got so close, I could not get that job. And I took on so many internships that were unpaid, and again, very competitive to get. Like I'm begging to work for you for free. I know money. Let me read, let me write, let me do something.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

What do you think there? So I'm I'm always curious. This is my ignorance that I'm gonna put on full display right now. I always kind of feel or have heard that MFAs, you know, are very literary driven, not very genre commercial driven, not a lot of insights about maybe the realities of making a living doing this kind of thing. When you start to apply for these internships at publishing houses, you know, assuming these publishing houses cover multiple genres and literary fiction as well. What do you think that they're looking for? I mean, are they looking for MFA candidates who kind of have maybe that literary bent, or are they looking for more work experience? What do you think it is?

SPEAKER_02 11:21

I don't think they're necessarily looking for MFA candidates, or they're probably not looking for MFA candidates on the building.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

They don't want to have to break them down and build them up again.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

But they're looking for editors, someone who has that sharp critical eye. And I do think that I'm a good editor. I edit every day in my job, but I'm not sure that I was the candidate they were looking for. I'm not sure I know how to shape a book out of a manuscript.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

Unless it's my own.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

And then and then now you're working. Just explain a little bit about what you do with Cosmopolitan magazine.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yes. So I'm the senior news editor. News at Cosmopolitan is very different from what you might find at like CNN, say like news for us is celebrities, reality television, the royal family, just uh really kind of clicky fun news. Like right now, Love Island USA premiered today. That's going to be my life for the next six weeks. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

So, and when you say that's going to be your life, like give me an example of that. You're senior news editor. So are you just more reviewing content um that's being submitted for to you for you know for publication? Are you you're having to get your hands dirty watching everything? Like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 12:36

So I assign stories to my team. Yeah. Hey, like a lot of people are covering it. This one woman got kicked out before the show started. Let's cover that. Let's go into that. What happened there? We'll have a tracker of all the contestants and all the new bombshells coming in. Uh-huh. We're really just kind of the show's on every day. So there's plenty of fodder on the front end. So we're just seeing what happens in each episode, what is the clickiest thing that happened, and trying to cover it from a unique cosmo angle.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

And that's there's got to be this like amazing, you're so adjacent, or not even adjacent, you are right in there with pop culture and what's popular, and you know, the kinds of things everyone consumes. And that's so important for writing mystery thriller suspense. Like it's I I think people uh my my experience is a lot of authors, I don't think, necessarily appreciate how much books compete with that kind of thing, right? Because you're whatever's grabbing people's attention. Do you feel like that's giving you insights to like, I need to make these chapters shorter? This isn't for better word, being clicky enough, that you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

I think that being a news editor, I'm thinking about how people read and consume things. Like we see that a story has an average time of like a minute and 24 seconds that a reader spent on it, and you're like, wow, that's impressive. That's a long time. It really is like an average of like 30 seconds people will give your article, no matter the length. So I realize in my own writing, you've got to grab them from page one.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

I used to write more literary fiction, but I started writing thrillers because I realized there is this attention deficit that we really we have so many things competing for our attention. You people are looking for stories that are really compelling from the start.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yeah, and that's true. And then, you know, I I will read that kind of uh writing, I will read long form blogs, and then I do find myself like, oh, I know how this long-form blog is going to start. It's going to be three paragraphs of this setup through example. And I do find myself like kind of scrolling down, like, okay, where's the part that I and it's it's weird, right? Right? I mean, it's like we're all being trained to pay less attention. And I think fortunately for me, I just happen to write like that. Um, I happen to write short, punchy things, that's just because how my own brain works, so it it tends to work, but it's you go back and look at thrillers from like a Stephen King novel from the 80s, you know, 900 pages, that would never sell today.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

They would cut that in a third and say we we need to tighten this up, man.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

And I love the fact that you sound you love writing, but you also sound very intentional about it in the sense of like, look, I can write literary fiction, but my best chances of success are maybe headed toward genre fiction. You know, I assuming you still love that stuff and you want to write that stuff, you know, you can't be totally cynical about it. But um not many people have that kind of insight as they're embarking on their journey. Um, and you have two books out now, is that right?

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Correct. Yeah, so I published my first one back in 2018. I wrote it during grad school while I was getting my MFA. And it's literary but has kind of a sharp hook. And after that, I spent years writing books that I could not sell. I wrote three books that went on submission and did rounds and rounds of edits, and I was told time and time again, you know, like the writing is good here, but I just I don't see why this story needs to be told. It was missing urgency. Right. I was writing these like kind of like soft character studies. It's like, okay, yeah, the writing is nice, but why do I need this?

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Right, right. Because they were being shopped to kind of suspense editors.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

No, they were being shopped at literary houses. They just wanted my weird little stories, and that's fine. It was stories need to be told for a reason. And it's like, why would anyone not not to say why would anyone pick this up? I will not knock my own writing, but there was no reason for the story to be told. And we're it's becoming just so competitive.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Whether they're literary or genre fiction.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Yeah, it's that sharp hook you're talking about, right? That has to exist somewhere because that's how kind of at least the American brain, I think, is is is working in in this day and age. But that's I mean, because I have the same experience. Three books that were agented, were shopped, never went anywhere. My big criticism was my heroes were too weak because I try to make things too like this is what would happen if the hero got punched in the face. Nobody wants to read that. Um, so it is kind of this whole learning experience, but it's it's also frustrating to get feedback like why is the story need to be told? Because I think as writers, it's hard for us to have that um understanding. Like, I don't know, it was interesting to me, but it's hard to have a pulse on what people want. Like you can write something that could be a breakout, you can write something that flops and feel exactly the same when you finish each one of those books. You're like, I think it's okay. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

I think the hardest thing is trying to land on something topical where the publishing industry moves pretty slow. If something feels very fresh right now, when your book finally comes out two years from now, if it is turned around pretty pretty quickly, the moment may have cast.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yeah, you're totally right. And you know, we I think we all know chasing the market never works because of those exact reasons. Um you know, my last book, the one that actually broke out was podcast book. And I saw a lot of reviews like, oh my God, another podcast book. And I'm like, I had no idea. You know, I wasn't trying to be topical. I was just kind of thought it was kind of an interesting idea. Um, so there's something to be said, I think, about just like being almost your head in the sand a little bit about what is popular. Because sometimes it feels like you're looks like you're trying too hard if it's everything's like so on the nose in a way.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

You're accused of hopping on the trend.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

Oh, another trad wife book. Oh, another podcast book, say, like it's I'm not chasing a trend. This is just what I was compelled to write.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Right. I know it's who and like trad wife is a great example. Like when you hear these terms, you're like, I had no idea I was writing that. This is right, this is just a story I thought of. And then as I was writing it, I threw in these, you know, conflicts that I thought made it more interesting. But apparently now I've written completely within the heart of something that's not only popular, but popular and on the downward trend.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Like I was pitching something to my agent. He's like, Oh no, not another cult book. I'm like, is it a cult book? I guess it has a cult book.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

And are cult books a big thing? I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Yeah. I'm like, okay, not a cult book.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Oh, yeah. So that and is that how you kind of work with your agent? You tend to like I have three ideas. You know, are any of these do you think interesting?

SPEAKER_02 19:54

That's yeah, well, ideate. I'll kind of say, here's what I'm noodling around. Do you think that there is a story here? You'll help me kind of refine it before I get started so that I'm not wasting anyone's time.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Oh, see, that's the smart way of doing it. I tend to just write a book without telling anyone what I'm doing and be like, I don't know, here it is.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

That's why I spent eight years doing it.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

I know, I know I still do that. That's the only way I know how to do it. I'll go down a rabbit hole. I'm like, I think this is interesting, you know. And is it a problem that it's set in 1974? They're like, yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

But I had fun.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

So, um, so with that first, you know, you obviously have a lot of manuscripts under your belt, but that first book that published that you wrote in grad school, was that did you was that agented? Was that self-published?

SPEAKER_02 20:43

That was agented. So one of my internships was at a literary agency. I became good friends with one of my colleagues, was telling him, you know, I'm working on this book while I'm getting my MFA. He's like, I'd I'd love to read it. He ended up becoming my agent, and so we sold the book to Mac Millen. And it was, I thought this is it. This I'm about to be an author. And I was.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Well, you were, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

It was not the overnight success I was looking for. The the five book deal didn't come soon after.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Yeah, but that's that's rare. That's rare that that ever happens, right? Um and there's gotta be, you know, you called that, you know, literary with with a sharp hook, but there's gotta be even different expectations of writing a piece of literary fiction in your debut novel, and because there is that sense of like, there's this great new American voice out here, there's you know, that kind of as opposed to suspense, where you're, you know, I think the reality of suspense is yes, of course, you want critical acclaim, but you know, that's where you have the ability to sell potentially a lot of copies. And and over 20 years I've realized I've I'd rather have sales than awards. Um, but it's that first book, you just you have no expectation, like I don't know what. What happens now? Like how do I tell if it's how do I tell if it's success?

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Right. Like there are so many markers of success now. Is it a starred review in Kyrgyz? Is it X number of reviews on Amazon? Is it hitting the New York Times bestseller list? Like what counts as success anymore?

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yeah, and I think what a lot of authors dismiss is the fact that however you publish, but I think particularly traditional publishing, if you've traditionally published a book, even if it sells a thousand copies, that's one percent of you know writers who are able to, yeah. That's to me, that's success. You know, of course the goalposts are always moving once you accomplish something, but it I always try to like look back and reflect of like, wow, like it's amazing that I've gotten this far, considering almost nobody does, even if I want more. Um, I mean, being so close to the industry for so long and having your heart in it, even just having that first book published, did that hit you as like, you know, I can die happy now.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

You would think, but I'm a bit of a perfectionist, I hold myself to a very high standard. If one of my friends had published a book, I'd be like, incredible, fantastic work. To myself, I'm like, you're not a real author yet. Maybe seven books and you'll be a real author. I just sold my third, and I'm starting to come around to the idea that I could be an author. I'm getting more comfortable with claiming that.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yeah, yeah. You've you've hit it on the head because this is one of the things I work with with my writing students is the psychology of writing and and literally saying I'm a writer when somebody asks what you do. Uh, because for years and years and years and years, decades, I had a full-time corporate job. And I always had it in my head, even after I'd hit bestseller list, like, how can I claim to be a writer when most of the money I make comes from this other job? Um, and it's all that imposter syndrome, and it's so it's so insidious, right? Because it does really kind of destroy your confidence when confidence is what you need. Um, but with three books in, you're starting to feel a little bit more comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

We're getting there. When I'm whenever I'm at like a cocktail party and I'm asked what what do I do for work? I always lead with the the LinkedIn official title. I say, Oh, I'm a editor at Cosmopolitan, and then we'll shyly add, but like I write books too. I just don't want any.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Oh my god, I'm I'm getting goosebumps.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

This is exactly my experience. I'm afraid they're gonna think like not that there's anything wrong with self-publishing. A ton of people do it and find a lot of success from it. But I feel like for me to be able to claim it, I feel like I need this, it has to be with a trad publisher. It has to be real. I have to be a bestseller before I can claim this title. It has I needed other people verifying that this is real.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Totally. Oh my god. It's so my like I remember thinking it was like it was my fifth book, which was my eighth because three didn't sell that got nominated for best novel for ITW, best paperback. And I I really and I had already hit the USA Today bestsellers list, but I remember that was the first time I felt like I belonged in a way. Um, and this was whatever, 15, 17 years after I started writing. And it's I and I think ultimately the issue with it is that if if you're not giving your writing kind of that self-love and respect that it deserves, your circle kind of doesn't either, right? Then you have partners who might kind of you know subtly think of it as a hobby, as opposed to thinking of it as a career that it's as I think of it as a startup. Like I'm, you know, I'm pouring money into it, I'm pouring sweat equity into it, and it'll pay off way down the road. And then at some point, hopefully you get to a point you're like, okay, now I want to focus on I've got the awards, I've got the bestseller list. Now I want to focus on actually sustaining a living, doing this, which is really that to me, that's the brash ring, because that's the hardest thing to do because it's it's so much of it's not in our control, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Oh, yeah. Like that was the hardest part with the social media self-promotion of just taking myself seriously and asking other people to take me seriously. Right. A very vulnerable position to be in, to be tooting your own horn to saying, my work is good. It deserves your time and attention.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Yeah, it's it's so true. I just taught this class about being the vis a visible writer, like because we have to be visible now, right? This is like it's it's we can no longer just submit manuscripts and and never show up anywhere because people want to see the person behind the words. But that's that's why I think a lot of writers struggle with is that idea of like, I don't want to be seen, that's why I write. I don't want to, I don't want to toot my own horn because I'm an introvert and that makes me deeply uncomfortable. So it's about finding those ways to be seen without being salesy. And it's hard, it's a hard balance to to have. Um, because we all see other writers and we get jealous and it's like, well, I don't want to post like that, but so how did you how do you how do you manage that?

SPEAKER_02 27:36

It's a lot of just putting what people are thinking of of me to the side. I'm thinking, I'm not posting these things for my followers. I'm posting these for the followers I'm hoping to attract. That's a great way of looking at it. Like I would if I were speaking to an audience that I hope to have.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

And not thinking about what the people I had a class with in college are thinking about me or texting me to each other saying that this girl will not stop posting about her book.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Whatever. Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Totally get better soon.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Yeah, and obviously there's a balance with how much you're posting about your book as opposed to posting about your life or posting about your writing process or creative process. But that's a great way of looking at it because you do get to a certain point where you're like, I this is I'm managing my career, I can't think about what my mom is thinking about these posts or whatever it is. Um, and if they want to unfollow me, God bless them, they can unfollow me. Um, and you know, I I find it also helpful to ask for help from a you know a PR team, or you hire your own PR team, or you know, somebody who's or just looking at other people's posts and seeing what resonates with you. Um, and it uh as you know, it changes every three months. They what people are looking for changes.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Um realize the importance of building a community too. When you genuinely are happy for others and are supporting others vocally, people are gonna be much more likely to support you.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Yeah, totally. I mean, that's one of the reasons I started this podcast, is like now I know all these other authors. Um, that's why I started going to conferences way before I was published. Now I've got this community to your point of just like people I can lean on and people who can lean on me. And it's oh, I can't even underscore like how important that is. I'm sure you've have you been going to conferences and things like that as well.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

I was chicken out. Like I live in New York City when Thriller Fest happened. I'm like, Yeah, you're right there. I don't know. I unstructured events give me a lot of anxiety. I'm like, I need it, I need to a place to be, I need to be told where to sit, who I'm talking to. I can't flip around and make conversation.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Is that introversion or what is that?

SPEAKER_02 29:53

That's social anxiety, that's introversion.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah, and that's you've that's always been kind of part of your character.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

I'd say so.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, Thriller Fest can definitely be overwhelming. I work with the debut authors, so we always like like at the cocktail parties, we'll create a table with a sign that says debut authors. So if they don't have anyone else to talk to, they can just come hang out with us because of that same thing. Because you know, you've got 2,000 people there, and then some fairly big names just floating around, and you talk about imposter syndrome. Exactly. But then you start to realize how nice these people are, like you know, suspense writers to me, like my interactions over 20 years have been like everyone's uh my experience is everyone's great. Like I've never witnessed any backstabbing, I've never experienced that myself. Everyone's always willing to help. Um, hey, will you blurb my book? Sure, that's no problem. And it's it's amazing, it's a really gentle community from what I've witnessed.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

The more authors I meet, the more I realize we are all in the same boat here. We all want the same thing. We want readers, we want to support each other, and we want to be supported.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Right, right. Because if you're successful, that's not taking anything away from me, that's lifting the whole industry up. Um, it's getting people to read again. Um, you know, and that's that's that's the battle, right? Yes, is is is getting getting kind of people into books and and audiobooks are a big part of that, for example. Like people are rediscovering those, and whatever it takes to get people interested in story only helps out all of us, I think.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Um, what was your path like? So you're with Thomas and Mercer now, right? For your release that just came out. Correct. So what was that? So you write this this this second book, second published book, that it seems like it was very intentional to lean much more into kind of the thriller space on it. Um give it to your agent, agent shops it was what was that reaction like?

SPEAKER_02 32:10

It was very exciting after years of hearing no or getting so close. It was exciting to have a manuscript that excited people. We are trying a very different group of editors, editors who leaned more thriller than literary fiction, and so it was a chance to make like a fresh introduction to a group of editors I hadn't previously submitted to or who may not be familiar with me. And there was some confusion, like your first book looks like literary fiction, but this one's thriller.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Yep, we're we're trying something new.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Was there any discussion about changing your name?

SPEAKER_02 32:48

No, I I feel like that's something I'm wouldn't be willing to give up. Like there's something to be said about writing under a pseudonym, you have a little bit more freedom to divide your professional life and your personal life.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

But I feel very proud about putting my name on a book.

unknown 33:07

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

I did take my husband's last name. I'm like, I like my name. Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Yeah, no, that's great. I totally I I totally agree. I mean, it is a consideration in those moments that you were talking about, somebody, you know, and editor's looking at previous works, and you know, because they want to kind of sometimes establish you as the shiny debut, which they still kind of can if you're writing in in a kind of a new lane. Um, and as you were writing that book, were you very intentional about how you maybe changed your writing, or was it hookier? You know, what was it do you think that really made it kind of sell?

SPEAKER_02 33:52

I think I did a lot more planning ahead of time. I drafted out the whole story before I began writing, and I really focused on story. And I didn't sacrifice prose. I I feel that you can have two things. You can have like a very compelling storyline with lots of twists and turns, but you can have that really moving prose too.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Those two things can exist.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Yeah, they should exist, right? Because I think it's pretty often that we see interesting plots, but then if we're not attached to the character, then who cares? Like that that lasts for about 50 to 100 pages for me, of like, you know, this is fresh, this is original. But if I don't care, and that doesn't mean I have to like the character, but if I don't care about what happens to them, then it just all it's very forgettable, right? So I think striking that balance that you're talking about is kind of the payload, which is which is hard to do. But if you have that background of of writing kind of deep exposition and and and heartfelt characters, then I think I think the the hookier plot stuff is generally easier to do. I think.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

I agree. And I have to really love the writing when I'm reading a book, even if the story is so compelling, I'm turning the pages, I won't be as moved or as driven to pick up another book by that author if I really don't like their writing.

unknown 35:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

Like Andrea Bart is someone I pick up over and over again because I just love her writing and she just tells really, really good stories. Yeah. And it's under feature to find someone who does both of those things really well.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Yeah. And then you find these like these books for grammar and Goodreads communities, and who these people who are reading, you know, a book every three days. And then that balance of like, you know, it has to be all those things, but it also has to be propulsive. Um and I just think so much of that is just all you can do is write hundreds of thousands of words and get to that point over time where all those things maybe start to click into place. Because I think the moment I stop and start to try to dissect a book that I'm writing, it it gets overwhelming because I'm like, I don't know if the character is interesting, I don't know if this is propulsive enough. You just have to go with instinct after a while. But that took me, you know, 15 books to feel like, you know, just trust your instincts, which is a really scary thing to do for somebody with imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Yes, yes, hard agree. And a lot of it is learning to trust your reader too. I feel like I'm tempted to do a lot of hand holding when I write. I'm like, okay, I want to make sure I gotta make this very obvious. And you have to go through with a red pen after and say, okay, what is really not needed? What can the reader figure out on their own?

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Right. And most of the time that's almost everything. And and that's what's amazing is like it could be literally two sentences that an editor and agent will be like, uh, it's really starting to slow down right here. And it's like, I just described a tree. Can I have a breath? And they're like, No, you can't. The readers know what trees look like. And so I think you'll find in my writing I describe almost nothing. Um, and that's just kind of how my brain works anyway. But I do realize over time, like the reader not only can fill that in, they want to fill it in because they want to have their own version of the story for themselves. Um, a lot of readers, I think. I mean, a lot of thriller readers, I should be specific on that. You know, if you're writing literary fiction and the power is in the moment and the the description and maybe the languishing, um, then that's a different story. But I think for thriller writers, it's just like get to the point, get to the action, but make a make the characters so deep that we're gonna ache for them. Um, but do it fast.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Exactly. Like as as little as I need to be attached to this character without giving too much.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Yeah, and it's a hard thing to see for ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Yeah, it's like you're not writing books for idiots, so don't don't act like they're idiots.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

No, I know. But do you I don't know. Sometimes I'm wondering, like, am I am I shortchanging my own writing? Am I I'm never intentionally dumbing things down again? It's just kind of how my own brain works, but you want to be I want to describe that tree. I could describe that tree really well. I know, I think that's it a little bit. You want to be memorable. So then if I start thinking about describing a tree, I'll think about what are the one or two words that I can use that people aren't expecting to be used as adjectives, for example, um, without trying to sound like I'm trying too hard. Like, what's the first thing I think of when I look at the bark of that tree? Do I think it looks like you know, the skin of a dead elephant? You know, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Something that lends itself to being creepy or establishing the tone I want.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Right, right. And that's just it, right? It like how can every every sentence really give off a little bit of a sense of dread? And and it can just be a simple word choice without being hitting somebody over the head. But it's again, I think that just takes years of experience of just being not only writing, but certainly reading in that space as well.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

I remember doing this exercise in grad school where we took like a paragraph, paragraph or whatever, like something from our writing, and we tried to find the most unexpected way to describe it, like cutting out all idioms, any turns of phrases, like what are we really trying to say here? I try and challenge myself like, does this phrase feel a little trite? Does this feel true? What am I really trying to say here? And getting to the core of that.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Right. Yeah, I think that's and what what I've learned over time is that it's okay to be a little basic. Um, because what are you trying to, how are you trying to describe the grass? Well, it's green, like that's that's really what I'm trying to say. Like, all right, we'll say that it's green. Um, maybe don't do that all the time, but because if it does sound like you're trying too hard, then it becomes distracting. And that's the last thing you want is for the reader to be pulled out because they're like, Oh, here's this person with their with their trying to be different description again. Um, but and that none of that works without feedback, right? None of that works without beta readers, agents, editors, people who can tell you, you know, this feels a little bit much or whatever. Because my whatever I turn into my agent, I'm like, this is this is the best that I could do at this point in my life. Now, now I need you to tell me how to make it better. And the same thing with the editor, and then you read some reviews, and that informs you for the next thing, maybe. Um, so it's and that's the beauty of writing, is you're always learning. There's there's no there's really no limit to it.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

Right. It reminds me of being in high school and writing an essay. And I thought the best way to make it impressive was to right-click on every word and look up the thesaurus and change it for a more impressive sounding word. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

And nobody talks like that.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Writing because no one knows what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

Right, right. Exactly. I mean, I'm writing something right now, it's it, you know, about a person kind of a hacker in the dark web in 2012, when the dark web is kind of even more the Wild West than it is now. And it's interesting, and I want to explain kind of the process to the readers, but all of a sudden I'm like, if I'm writing two pages of her hacking, that's probably like they get it. She's hacking, she's brilliant. You know, a paragraph will do it, even if it's like really interesting to go into the details of what she's seen. And even today, I'm like, Oh, I think this is too much, I think this is slowing the story down. You want to show off all the research you did, but then and isn't that so obvious in a book when you're reading that and you're like, Oh, they found out this bit of information, they could not wait to put this in the book because it doesn't do anything for the story, it's just interesting, but it doesn't do anything. Um, and so then so you're with Thomas and Mercer now, and then you say you're working on book three, that's also for Thomas and Mercer?

SPEAKER_02 42:27

That's actually going to be with Harper Collins. I'm just a Harper perennial. So I'm really excited.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Wow. So you're so you're getting I've had that experience too. You're getting that experience of like, what do different how do different publishers work? How do they treat a launch? How do they treat PR marketing, you know, all that kind of stuff, which is man, it's a great education to have because you do have an appreciation for when you're with a publisher that is really paying a lot of attention, you're like, well, this is way more than I got before, or whatever it is. When does that book come out?

SPEAKER_02 43:02

That comes out to be determined either fall of 2027 or spring 2028.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Yep, yeah. That's your point. It it takes a long time. And are you done with that book?

SPEAKER_02 43:14

Nope. I'm about halfway done, so we're we're making progress.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

That's good, and but it I assume it has a due date.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Yes, it's due in September, so I gotta get a moving. You know, like as you know from working a full-time job and being a writer, it's a lot. I have two little kids, I have a one-year-old and a three-year-old.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

It's oh my goodness, it's a lot. Yeah, you're right in that sweet spot of horror where yeah. I mean, when my kids were that age, I wasn't on deadline. I was writing spec, but you know, I would give myself deadlines. And that's where I came up with just writing an hour a day, which is what I still do. Um, but if you can be consistent about it and write five to seven hundred words every day, and you know. They're not going to be great necessarily, but it's momentum. Then you can have a draft in six months. Um, you know, if you can, but sometimes even finding that hour is hard. Like, what how much do you try to write a day?

SPEAKER_02 44:14

That's honestly exactly what I do. After the kids go down for the night, I give myself at least an hour. I'll try for two. I aim for 500 to 1000 words. And again, like even if it it stinks, like I got something down on paper. I'm working. My the brain is uh chugging along. Like last night I was really not feeling it. I'm like, let's just sit down, see what happens, put the phone away. And I got out 800 words. And I'm like, you know what? I'm actually pretty happy with this.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Yeah, totally. I know you your instinct is especially it's like working out, right? Like, I don't feel like it. And then you start and you're like, all right, now I'm kind of invigorated because I've started, I've done the warmups or whatever. And that's it. And you might think of something in that one session that you're like, oh, this is the this is the connective tissue to the rest of the story. And had I not written tonight, maybe I wouldn't have thought of that. Exactly. So no, I think you're absolutely right. Um, well, Corinne we're gonna wrap up before we do. We're gonna do our own little storytelling. Um, let's do it. Uh, so I've I've chosen three books off my bookshelf um at random. I think these were all sent to me for a contest um that I was a judge in a few years ago. Um, you're gonna choose one of these books. We're gonna choose a random sentence from a random page. I'm gonna read that sentence, and that'll be the first sentence in a very, very short, short, short story. Um, so we'll just alternate sentences back and forth. We can do whatever we want with it, and then I'll call it a day um after a couple minutes. So I've got uh Christina McDonald's What Lies in Darkness, uh Minka Kent's Imaginary Strangers, and the great title by BJ uh Magnani will always have poison. Oh, what so choose one of those.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Oh, I think we got to go with that last one. That title is very compelling.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

We'll always have poison. Yes, it's like we'll always have Paris. Um my goodness, there's like a crossword puzzle on the back of it.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

Oh, okay. That's fun.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

I've never seen that. Uh so give me a page between one and 270.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Aubrey, let's go for 36.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Okay, I'm gonna quickly scan page.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Hopefully it's not another crossword.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

That would be a first. Um uh so let me just quickly scan this. Um, you can do whatever you want with this. Um the sentence is this. She returned the camera to the bottom drawer of her locked file cabinet.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

She had just returned from a party where she took some incriminating photos of her ex.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

She had to think what she was gonna do with the film. Yes, she still used film, and she had to find a place to develop it. And she quickly got lost in the salacious joy of revenge, not actually thinking about what it would do to his kids.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

And interestingly enough, they were also her kids. So she was really in a pickle.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

But she knew what was on the film wasn't just immoral, it was criminal. And there was a possibility of actual prison time, and for all of the times she wished him away, she was never as close to actually making that happen as she was now.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

And then she took the photos to be developed by her lover, and he realized that what we have on our hands isn't just evidence of a crime, it's evidence of a murder.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Oh, I think we leave it there. And I love that her her lover was conveniently uh uh a photo developer.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

You love when that happens.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

It's just so convenient. That was great. Wow, 10 or 10 would read. Well, thank you for being a good sport. What a pleasure to meet you. And you know, next year at Thriller Fest, if you're a couple blocks away, you should pop in and say hi. I'm doing it, I've determined holding myself accountable. Yes, yes, I it's it's part of it's part of the experience. So, but congrats on the on the recent release and looking forward to the the one in 2027-2028. And um, yeah, thank you again. Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast. Take care, Corinne. Bye. Bye. All right, friends. That is it. That is my conversation with Corinne Sullivan. Like I said, lots of good insight in that conversation, especially if you are an aspiring writer. Actually, I just heard that you're not supposed to say aspiring writer, that some people are offended by that. So if I offended you by saying that, I am sorry. Um, unpublished writer, maybe. Uh, this is all news to me. I just uh my friend Alex Finlay just told me this the other day. Um, so we shall not say aw. Uh unpublished writer. Um, you can check out Corinne's latest book, Yours Always. Um, and if you're interested in pre-ordering a copy of When They Find Me, my new book, he would be my best friend for at least a couple minutes. I would really appreciate it. Uh, but you can investigate all things about my books at CarterWilson.com. All right, that is it. That is it for this episode of Making It Up. Thanks as always for watching and or listening until we post one next week again. Friends, take care of it.