Making It Up with Steve Cavanagh, author of the Eddie Flynn novels

"I'm constantly thinking that I'm the total underdog here... I sent off like half a dozen applications, and three days after an agent told me I'd never be published, I had offers from two of the biggest agencies in London. I thought, 'Okay, nobody knows anything in this business." — Steve Cavanagh 

Steve Cavanagh is the multi-million bestselling author of the Eddie Flynn novels and standalone thrillers. In 2018 The Liar won the Crime Writers Association Gold Dagger for crime novel of the year. In 2019 Thirteen won the Theakstons Old Peculier Crime Novel of the year 2019. All of his novels have either been nominated for awards, or have won awards internationally. He is a former lawyer, and was born and raised in Belfast, Northern Ireland, where he still lives.
 
Among other things, Steve and Carter discuss word-of-mouth press, how the passing of Steve’s mother inspired him to write his first novel, and how your books’ covers contribute to your brand. At the end of their conversation, they make up a suspenseful story using a line from Harlan Coben’s The Woods.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Writers, hello. This is Carter, and welcome to this episode of Making It Up, my little podcast where I sit down with authors. I get to meet a lot of cool people. We get to talk about whatever the hell we want to talk about. Usually writing, no surprise. Um, no scripted questions, nothing prepared in advance, just two people chatting about the world of um published writing and how it affects us and how we navigate through it and things that we like and things that we struggle with. Um, and today's episode, which I'll get to in just a second, we went kind of heavy into the actual publishing aspect of it and dealing with publishing houses and taking feedback and um understanding, you know, what long-term commitments you're making to one another. So it was it was pretty fascinating to dig into the actual publishing side of things because we don't talk about that a whole lot. Um, so it was great. Um, and before I get to today's guest, just a note Unbound Rider, that's the company I founded several years ago. We've got a retreat coming up next year in Paris with myself, Alex Finlay, Clemence Michelin, um, along with a guest appearance by Riley Sager. If you're interested in that kind of thing, we're getting close to being sold out. So check it out at my site, unboundrider.com. And if you're just looking for one-on-one coaching with me, that is the core business of what I do at Unbound Rider. Um, so again, go to unboundrider.com if you're interested. Look at all the offerings that I have on there. And you can set up a free 20-minute uh Zoom call with me where we can just kind of get to know each other, see what your issues are, see if we might be a good fit in working together. So zero risk. Um, I highly recommend you check it out if you are looking for a little bit of help with your writing, with your writer psychology, with advice on social media and publishing and all that kind of stuff. Um, I help with all of those things. All right, today on the show, I had Steve Kavanaugh. So you've probably heard of Steve Kavanaugh. He's a multimillion uh copy bestseller, uh, many, many, many books, um, some series series books, um, some standalones, but he's got he's the author of the Eddie Flynn novels. And um, I think he said coming up on his third standalone novel. Um he's you know, he's he's in Northern Ireland. So he has um publications both in the US uh and the UK and Northern Ireland. So a book might come out there that um he is then promoting for further release here. But I will say his latest book that he's promoting is Um One of Us Is Guilty. I think it's out in the UK right now, and I and he's on tour, um, but I don't think it comes out in the US until next year. Anyway, you figure it the fuck out. You can go to his website, you can go to Amazon, you can go anywhere in a number of places and check out all his books and see when they might be available in your area. Um, but we had a fantastic conversation. I met him briefly at the Hamptons who done it a couple of years ago and asked him to be on the show. Um and, you know, he his journey is is fascinating. Uh he's another recovered lawyer. We seem to have a lot of those on the show, um, and a former lawyer. And he is now pumping out books, and he has been highly successful. He's one of those rare cases where the first novel he wrote um did take off, did get published. Um, he but he had written a couple screenplays prior to that that didn't go anywhere, but taught him something about writing because he's not coming from a writer's background, um, just like myself. And but, you know, he's somebody who's experienced great success with his books, but it's also as we get into our conversation about working with publishers, it has a lot to do with learning from the publisher, communicating with the publisher. Um, and he he underscored that several times, the importance of that, and really understanding, hey, what is our long-term plan here together? Let's not just write a book and hope for the best. Let's figure out what's a good trajectory for both of us on this journey together. So he's very thoughtful about the business aspect of things. Um, it was a fantastic conversation. I loved what we did with a little storytelling at the end, which was lifted from Harlan Coban's The Woods. You're gonna like this one, friends. This is my conversation with Steve Kavanaugh. Uh so are you you're in Northern Ireland right now?

SPEAKER_02 4:51

I am, yeah. I'm in sort of in the countryside, about half an hour from Belfast.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Okay. And and no representation in the World Cup this year, I don't think.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

No, Northern Ireland aren't in the World Cup this year. Um, we rarely get to the World Cup. So I would normally support Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland, but um the whole of Ireland unites uh in the hope that England gets beaten.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

So I think they play today, actually.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

They are, they're playing later tonight. Uh and I josh at that. I actually do hope they do well, and I hope Scotland managed to get through as well. So yeah, we'll we will be cheering them on.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Well, Scotland has been wholly embraced by the city of Boston.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Yes, I wonder why. Uh may well be that they're spending lots of money um in pubs. Uh, there's also I saw um there's Scottish fans who are embracing a small grocery store, a liquor store called uh Joby Liquor, J-O-B-I, and then liquor. Um but do you have you seen this? I have not. Basically, the whole of Scotland have had their picture taken outside the store um because jobby is a slang term for a shit. So jobby liquor. Everyone is outside. It's the greatest thing ever for them. It's the best thing ever. So all of Scotland is, you know, they're not worried about the football, they're all going to this guy's liquor store.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

I'm sure the guy doesn't have a problem with that. I'm sure they're there. I know he's quite happy about it. So I'm curious. So you're born and raised Northern Ireland, I assume. Uh you still have family, you're you're are you close to lots of relatives and things like that?

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yeah, I still have relatives here. I knew my family's uh I live here with my family, my wife and and kids. So yeah, I've very much ties uh here. Um I have no no um no aspirations to move anywhere else.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

And then and then growing up there, did you were you a creative kid? Was this uh I mean I'm always so I I see that you're a you're a recovered lawyer, which is yes, very, very common. I you know, again, I've done 250, 300 of these interviews, lots of lots of former lawyers that I talked to. Um, but was and what I find evidence a lot is people, creative kids who had at least some kind of practical sense of making a living and then realizing they wanted to go back to the creativity. Where do you fall on that spectrum?

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Oh god, I'm not sure I was creative at all, really. Uh-huh. Um, I I um I liked reading. Uh I started in the comics and then I moved on the books, so I loved reading, and my mom read. But I came from a real, you know, working class Belfast background, so there was no there wasn't a whole lot of creativity, you know, around really, um, apart from books uh and movies and TV. But um nobody I knew, you know, was involved in any of that. You know, that was a whole different world, right? Um, and not not one close to us. So I sort of uh because I could I I my dad was a plumber and he decided early on I would be a terrible plumber. So he's encouraged me to keep reading and maybe try an academic side of things, try and get a job at a desk, maybe. So I managed to sort of, you know, uh wangle my way into a law degree and uh or fell into it. And again, it's it's a um it's quite amazing that I got through all of that. And then um, but I always liked writing I liked writing and my mum encouraged me to write. So I I wrote screenplays when I was like 18 or 19, didn't get any of them sold, but and then stopped writing, and then I didn't do anything until I was in my mid-30s. My mum passed away, and I thought, well, I wonder if there's something I could do, you know. She was the only person who ever encouraged me to write. So I thought maybe I could try and write a book this time. Screenplay seemed easier to me before because it's only like a hundred pages.

unknown 9:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

And I thought I could do that.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Yeah, that's not a huge amount. I could maybe do that. Um so, but then I I thought I tried to write a book. So I wrote a book for her, basically, a book that I thought she would like, and and that managed to get it published, and then that started me off in this career. So I was never, I you know, I didn't tell anyone I was writing a book.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Right. Of course not. Why would you? It's embarrassing. Why would I? Because they would go, what? You know, you couldn't write a book.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Why are you wasting your time? Exactly. So, but then I when I did tell people I wrote a book and they read it, they went, actually, this is quite good. So then they were surprised. Um, so that that gave me little bits of encouragement are good when you're starting off. I think that always helps.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

But it's so it's there's a few fascinating bits in all of that, right? So, first of all, writing a screenplay when you're 18 or 19 in Northern Ireland, knowing that not only is it almost impossible to get a screenplay acquired, but it really helps to be, you know, in Southern California as well, to be in that kind of position, or have gone to film school or whatever. So it's just amazing that your brain went straight to like, let's try a screenplay just because it's it's it's less description than I have to write.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Exactly. It was just it was less seemed like less work, you know. And I'd watch so many bad films. I thought I could write one of those bad movies and you know make a load of money. Um, so I did. Uh uh, I wrote bad movies, uh, and um they but it's still training, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Because you're you're learning like you're learning dialogue, if nothing else, you're learning human interaction in a way that's compelling and and hopefully realistic.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Exactly. I I learned a few things from screenwriting, which I took over when I started writing books. Like get into a scene late and get out early. Yeah, I think is a great little bit of advice, which still you know serves me well even today. Because I tend to think of chapters like scenes almost.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Totally. And it's about trusting the reader, the reader gets it. You know, the reader doesn't have to have everything spelled out for them.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

No, no, of course not. Um, and that's the thing with lawyers, lawyers let process. And they're like, you know, spelling out exactly how, and this is uh what I've seen in a few lawyers who have written stuff, they wanted, you know, they they lay out this is exactly how this building works, this is how the court works, this is how trial works, this is how a you know, a motion or an application works, and this is what's happening, and it's you know, it's it's all really boring, really.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Um uh, you know, thank God I was never very good technical lawyer. Um, I was more about arguments and you know, catching people out in a lie, and the sort of you know the the the more psychological aspects of law I was better at. So um uh that helps me out, and I don't write a lot of legal procedure because I don't know a lot of legal procedure.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

And it's you know, it that's been done so much.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Yeah, exactly. And the people do it better than me. So I you know, I can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

So at what point uh, you know, you you wrote this first book. Yeah, I think you said you were in your 30s. You were still working as a lawyer at this point, I assume.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

I was, yeah. I was a civil rights and criminal lawyer.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Okay, so that's I mean, it's interesting. My daughter's in law school, that's why I'm kind of pursuing that a little bit. Oh, is she? Oh, good, yeah. Well, although everyone's like, go tell her to quit, tell her to like. Um, but she she enjoys it so far. I mean, she's still in school. Um, right, but but so then you write this book, and what's what's very rare, as I'm sure you're quite aware, is selling your first book. It's it's yeah, it's nearly it's nearly impossible to sell any book, much less the very first novel that you've written. So you so you write this book that you I assume perceive as I guess crime thriller, thriller, you know, dark. Um, and you did you uh has it worked the same way in Northern Ireland where you're looking for representation before you go to a publisher?

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah, um, so I wanted to get a literary agent. So I try I wrote the book and then I tried to get an agent, and that was the hard part for me, getting an agent. So it took me about six or eight months to get an agent.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

That's which is a blink of an eye for most people.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

Yeah, I'm so I've under so I've read to believe, but I think I was applying to like wrong, the wrong people. I think that's what it was. You know, I wasn't uh trying any of the big agencies in London or the big agencies in the U in the US. I was going to little small agencies where I thought because I didn't think any of the big ones would be interested in me at all. This is a pattern which repeated me. I'm I'm constantly thinking that I'm the total underdog here.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Well, that's the writer's brain right there.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

That's my brain, exactly. So um uh and the books was you know it was roundly rejected. I even got a I even got a rejection from an agent that I had met who had been at like an event thing uh in Northern Ireland, which was very unusual. And they read it and said, Well, look, I think you can write, but this book will never be published.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

What is it?

SPEAKER_02 14:25

And I was devastated. They said it's just it's not good enough, and this is never it's not gonna work, and what you're doing here is no good. And the three I I was thinking, well, I really trust this person, and this is awful. And then uh prior, a month prior to that, I thought, why don't I just try the bigger agencies? Why not? But you know, I can't lose anything. So I'd sent off like half a dozen applications, and three days after the agent had sent me that email, I had offers from two of the biggest agencies in London. Wow. And I thought, okay, nobody knows anything in this business. So I I worked with the agent, I sort of tidied up the book a little bit. It didn't need masses of work, you know, just a little bit of a tidy up, and then sent it out, and then there was an auction, and I got a three-book deal um for this character, the Eddie Flynn. So I thought that's great. I've got three chances to learn how to write a book. And that was kind of my those three books are kind of I sort of think of them as like apprentice books. Um they all were quite well received, but I I'm a much I became by the time I'd finished those three books, I became a much better writer.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

You know, for me, it was my three books that were agented but never sold. And and you know, everyone says, like, did you go back to them? And I'm like, no, they were my apprentice book. They were they were they were my MFA. This is how I learned to write. Because you and I are similar in the sense of we're not coming at this with this background of training or even an understanding of this is what we wanted to do. It kind of came to us. Whereas you didn't have the prolonged period of massive insecurity and self-doubt because at least you got picked up fairly quickly. Um, you know, I went through this stage where I'm like, I don't know if I, you know, having an agent was the one thing I needed to have some kind of like you don't suck kind of atmosphere. Um, somebody who I didn't know who was taking a chance on me. That's what I needed. But there's a lot of people out there, like they just get rejection after. They might be great writers, but you have no context because nobody's giving you that feedback. That even that one thing with you, the rejection saying you can write, but the story doesn't work. Hearing that you can write from a would-be agent is is a huge shot in the arm, I think.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

It is, yeah, exactly. Um, that that really helped them. Yeah, and along the way, you you know, you will get some requests. And you know, if you get a request for a full manuscript, that that's a little victory. Even if it doesn't turn into anything, right? You know, that's a little victory. But more and more, you know, I think writers, you really have to do your research, you really have to get a good agent. Um, you know, uh if you can, someone who is you know very well respected and has good, you know, um, good experiences and good reputation and and among publishers and sales books, yeah, you know, um, it's not just lots because a bad agent can, you know, can make you go nowhere. Right. So um which is which is a hard thing to do, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Because people do get offered representation, and it's very hard after years of trying and waiting to think about saying no to an offer, but sometimes you have to do that.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Exactly. Exactly. So I yeah, no, I was lucky I got a start, um, and uh things you know went on from there. So I I uh the first three books um were all nominated for awards and some some won awards. Um, but the problem was nobody nobody bought the books. That was the difficulty. Um and then I uh I there were all books in a series. I wrote a series called Eddie Flynn about a former con artist who's not a trial lawyer in New York. And um I wrote my fourth book, I wrote a book called 13, yeah, which is about a serial killer on a jury. And again, nobody expected that but to do anything really. Um and that was your first standalone? No, no, that's still in the series. Okay. Um and oh that that's the way that's the way I I sort of been. This is good. I'm glad you brought that up. I've kind of been writing a series in secret. Because I came into publishing at a time and I learned very quickly that publishers love a series because you've already made audience. If someone buys one book and they like it, they're gonna buy the next one.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

And that's like, you know, that's what they all want. Every publisher wants a successful series like Michael Connolly or John Connolly or Lee Child or you know, um, or any of these great writers, or you know, Karen Slaughter or whatever, they all want this return in character. Um but uh that the audience didn't really want it at that time because just before I got published and in continuing in my first few years, it was all big standalone psychological thrillers that were taking off. Like The Girl on the Train, Before I Go to Sleep, and stuff, these were the big hits, and people wanted that. So uh the publisher didn't, and still to this day, really don't put this as a series on the books. But we have well that that book 13. I I asked them to put the tagline on the cover, the serial killer isn't on trial, he's on the jury. And people saw that and went, Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Yeah, that's the high concept pitch right there.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

That's the high concept pitch, and they picked it up, didn't know, not knowing there's three books before that. I mean, they didn't need to read the three books before that. I I always I sort of learned from writers that I admire, and I'm a huge admirer of Lee Child. I mean, the Reacher series is uh one of the best series of books, you know, um uh in the last 50 years, easily. But you don't need to read them in order, you can just pick whatever one up you want, right? It all work is complete standalone, so there's a gateway into the series anywhere, and I wanted to do that. So people um so 13 came out and to no great um you know the fanfare. Um, but booksellers, particularly in Waterstones in the UK, uh loved it. And initially they didn't think they the the order for the whole country was 250 copies for all stores. Um but they very quickly sold out, like in the the morning of the third pay of publication day, they had another order in. And then they kept reordering. And uh six, seven weeks after it was published, it hit um the bestseller list in the Saturday Times, which is just what's selling in Waterstones. It's the Waterstones bestseller list. And it was a paperback original, and that's the first time I saw my name in a paper on a on a bestseller list. Not the Sunday Times bestseller list, which is overall what is sold the most that week, was this is just what's selling in Waterstones. But it just the word of mouth just built for that book from the bookseller. So it was all happened quite organically, and that that that that helped me out in the thing grew from there.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

And that's what's amazing, too, is because most people think, and that's true in many cases, is that you know the publisher's doing a lot to get it on the list in those first couple of weeks, because that's usually when it's going to hit, if it's gonna hit. But one thing I've learned in 20 plus years of doing this is nothing sells like word of mouth. And exactly, you know, with my breakout, it was it didn't hit the times list, but it just sold consistently week after week without really dropping. And you just realizing people are talking about this book. It's not doing 20,000 units in one week, but it's doing thousands. Consistently week after week. And that's I mean, that's what you want.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

That's what you want. That's what you want. You want the long tail.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yeah, you want the long tail.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

That's yeah, that's and I was lucky to have that with a you know a few of my books. But it's weird because I think the UK and the US industries are different because in America there are certain things that publishers do differently, which you know, UK publishers don't do. Yes, throwing a lot of money and advertising at a book helps, and building that buzz, but they all build it very differently. And you know, if you're lucky to get a book on Reese's, you know, Reese's book club or the you know, some book club in America, that can really, you know, a TV book club, that can really blow you up and give you that chance. So it's about, you know, but uh a lot of it, I think, is about being lucky. I think. Totally. I mean, you can't control if Reese picks your book, or you can't control it. No, you can't control it at all. Um, but uh, you know, those little things give you a boost, and it's nice to have a little boost every now and again. But I I I'm very happy with word of mouth and readers recommending the books because that's that's that's gold for me, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Yeah, I mean it's it's the difference between being mid-list and breakout is kind of that's incident for your books. Um, you know, for me it was getting selected by Barnes and Noble for a monthly pick, and then all of a sudden you're in front of a bunch of people who then, if they like it, will talk about it. Um, you still have to write a book that people are going to want to talk about. It's just how do I get to that level where enough people see it to start the conversation? And that's that's what you kind of can't control. Um and you just learn and you just keep writing as the best that you can, and then you forget about it and you move on to the next one.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

That's all you can do, and it's a long journey. Um yeah, big time. So did you did you resign your job as being a lawyer because of your ability to sell books?

SPEAKER_02 24:12

Yeah, well, uh no, I resigned in my job as a lawyer because my wife told me to. Um but yes, that was the main reason. So that book 13 came out and did very well. And I had published uh a standalone book after that called Twisted, because at the time there didn't seem to be any great desire for another Eddie Flynn book before 13 came out. And I thought I can't write a better Eddie Flynn book than that one at the moment. I'll try and and branch out a bit and write a standalone book. Um, to show that I'm not a one-trick pony, that I can't just write the series, I can write something else. And I'm really glad I did that because it um it helped, you know, learn writing something slightly new and a slightly different genre. I mean, to me, they're all all the books are suspense thrillers, but um that really helped um and it helped you know grow me as a writer and I learned new skills, which then I brought back to the series when I wrote about it again. So I doing standalone books as well as a series is something that I've continued to do, and I'll do the odd stuff. I've done two standalones now, and I'm writing a third at the moment. So um that helps. And again, I'm learning from from people who are you know much wiser and much more talented than me. Like Michael Connolly published a number of fantastic Harry Bosch novels, but the poet was the one that broke out for him, you know, in in different markets, and that was a standalone. Yeah, and people like that and said, Oh, there's your other books, but it's author, I'll read those too. And again, all of that helps. Same with the Lincoln Lawyer.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Yeah, and it's well, it's interesting because so I've only ever written standalone, my 11th comes out this year, and I've had a couple that have had some crossover, but that's more just for my amusement rather than a real series, because my experience at the beginning of publishing was a little bit different than yours in the sense that people, I mean, I didn't have I wasn't pitching a series. Um but what I was kind of told was publishers are wary of series for new authors because if that first one doesn't do anything, now they're stuck with the contract for two more. Um, so I'm like, okay, so I'll just write standalone. So that's all I've ever done. But I've also noticed that I love I love it because I love like, where are we going to go? Who's this person going to be? What's the situation? Which you can kind of do with it with the series as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Um that they see there's there's something else in that publishers are, you know, just like everyone else in this business, they they don't know anything. I I'll say that, including you know, every publisher I've ever worked with, they don't know anything. And they don't learn, you know, they'll we know what's happening at the moment, and they want to publish books like that. So, for example, there was a book that came out, oh God, what do you call it? It was a huge, big New York Times bestseller about a girl who was raised in the woods uh by a serial killer, and then, you know, raised in a swamp somewhere, and then came out, you know, emerged from the swamp. It was like a TV series and all made. Then it sold amazing. And then every publisher across the world is, well, where's my book about a girl who was raised in a swamp by a serial killer? Um, and then there was loads of them. There was like after three years, there was like six or seven of these books, you know, all these women raised in swamps by serial killers. Um, creating any of those books at all. They were all out in submission, all rejected before, before one hit.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

But the thing is, what used to happen in publishing is you publish your book and then it did okay, didn't do so great. Now a lot of publishers are throwing spaghetti at a wall.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Let's throw all this up and see what sticks. But all the authors that I know and that you know that are, you know, in our genre who are the huge big bestsellers, very few of them hit with a first book. Very good. It was the fifth book or the tenth book. It was my tenth book. There you go. So uh and this is series, you know, but growing a series of building a readership, you know, slowly is what they used to do. And they don't do it anymore because for whatever reason, and I don't know why, because there's very few news series that I can think of coming through um in the last sort of five or six years. Um, so you have to give it time and the right and give it to give authors time because authors get better, right? Well, they're always pursuing this thing.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Because, you know, I think your comment about publishers not knowing anything is is is well founded, but I I think the difference is between publishers, and this is kind of speculation, although I've been with a few different ones, they might not know what's going to work, but they'll know that they have to make a decision whether or not to nurture an author or just chase that shiny thing. And if it doesn't work out, then they they they eject you. Um, I'm with a publisher who's just like, hey, we're happy with people being midless if we see that to your point, the author's getting better, they're willing to do stuff, they're they're honing their craft because you can sell 5,000 copies of a book and still be okay. You know, you're not necessarily losing money for a publisher, and they can hold you on so they can start selling 10,000, 20,000, 100,000 copies down the road if they see that in you. But some publishers, I think again, you know, they're just going for the girl in the swamp. And if that doesn't work, then they go on to the next thing. And then you never really develop as an author, you're just bouncing around.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

And I just I don't blame them. Oh, they're all very smart people and they're all thinking with the bottom line, you know, we got to make money and what's gonna make money now. But I think there has to be a certain aspect of you know, holding it back because they they don't know what works or what makes a best seller either. My editor, um Adrius Sean Delone, is an incredibly smart guy and writes a very good substack called Dear Head of Mine. So if you ever want to read, you know, the the the ramblings and very considered uh and intelligent thoughts of a of an editor at a big five publishing house, read Sean's substack. But he's great in that he'll very rattily say, We didn't know this book was going to take off and do, you know, nobody saw this coming. And anyone who says they saw this particular book, whatever it was, you know, coming and was gonna nobody knew. Word of mouth is what builds it, and sometimes you can get a sniff of that and sometimes not, you know. Um like Dan Brown, um, you know, is one of the is it's the he's the number two best-selling author in the world for the last 50 years. And the Da Vinci Code was rejected by quite a few publishers.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

We had the opportunity to snap that up, and they didn't. Uh and they had their own reasons for it. And you know, that went, I can remember that book. That was, you know, used to anywhere you stayed, if I would go and stay in a in a you know, someone's house or in a in a hotel or an Airbnb or a something like that, you would see that book everywhere. Everyone had that book. I was reading that, but but you know, sometimes publishers they they can't see it coming.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Yeah, Gone Girls the same way. Like, you know, Gillian Flynn had a couple excellent, excellent books before that, but you know, nothing major. And then that one just took off. And it wasn't because I don't think that they all of a sudden decided to inject a lot of money into that campaign, maybe more so than her previous two, but totally disproportionate with that how it sold. Um, so yeah, you just don't know what's going to resonate with you don't know.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

And I think a lot of it comes down with you talking to your publisher and having really good communication. I'm I'm very firmly of the mind that good communication is vital. They have to know what your plan is, and you gotta know what their plan is, and everyone has to have the same plan, hopefully. And it's as basic as that. But when you when that doesn't happen, that's when you can have you know little problems. And I know from I know a lot of writers, but so I think that that's key. Good communication is is the foundation to it all.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

So when you say plan, do you mean in terms of what you're planning to write or the actual launch of the book?

SPEAKER_02 32:38

Uh I'm talking about a long-term strategy.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

I'm talking about what what are we gonna do here? I this is what I do, and are you happy with what I do? Um and uh how are we gonna grow this? Um what kind of conversation we're gonna have around this? Um, and are you happy with with what I'm doing? Um, I long-term strategies are are are great, and that's the only kind of conversation I can have because quite often I don't know what book I'm going to deliver until I've delivered it.

SPEAKER_03 33:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Um the publisher might occasionally call me and say, So this book is a Nettie Flynn, or it's a standalone. And here's you know, two sentences about what it's about, roughly. Right. Right. And they'll go, Oh, that sounds great. They'll trust me enough. Um, so I can't write an outline. I don't know. I can't do it. So they trust me enough to go, well, we'll have you know four more Steve's books. And whatever it is, you know, they might want to stand alone, they might want more series. Um, and I'll say, Well, I'm getting right. This is I write a few Eddie Flint and the other standalone, and this is what I do, and everyone's very happy with that. So I'm lucky in that way.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Well, I don't even know if it's luck, it's it's they know because that's a major part of the game, is being somebody you can work with, which is the true where wherever you're working in the world, because I'm the same way. Like, I even if I give them two paragraphs on what the book is about, that second paragraph is inevitably going to be totally different than what I actually end up writing. And but they not only do they trust me to deliver a good book, but also to know that I'm willing to invest months of editing when they say, Yeah, but this part doesn't work for me. And can you do this? And I'm like, sure, let's make it better because I'm not perfect. I don't, you know, I need that. I need that input. Um, and they know that I'll put in the hard work to do that. Um, but you have to have a uh some kind of history with them for them to get to that point. Because I mean, the words long-term and publishing, you don't usually hear together because a lot of them like we don't know if we want you for more than two more books because we don't know what what the market's gonna do, what you're gonna do, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

Exactly. And that's that's very hard for them to plan ahead, and it's very hard for you to plan ahead. Right. And I think the smarter, the smartest publishers recognize, okay, let's we've got a few, you know, shoots growing here, here and there. Let's stick with that, right? You know, because when you're starting off, they're not paying you a million dollars for a book, you know. They're they're they're paying a small amount, and usually, you know, a mid-list author or whatever, you'll usually they're making money on your books, they're not making a fortune. No, they're not really losing.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

But that's why they have a lot of authors, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Um, and it only takes you know, uh a bit of luck or something like this, and someone comes out with a brilliant idea or a great and a great execution, and that book gets a lift. And that's great, you know. It's because it I think in if you're starting off in this business, you read these stories in Publishers Weekly or the bookseller about someone got a million-dollar deal. And sometimes those books work great, and sometimes they don't.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

So I'd rather grow.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Me too. Me too. And then you do have a bigger book, and then they start to invest more into the next one. And that still might not do as well, but it'll do better than your mid-list ones, probably. Um, exactly. Isn't it a weird thing when you think about publishing? Because and I've told this story on the podcast before. Like you're you're this integral part of their business model, but you're this contractor who you rarely communicate with them. I mean, you communicate, but it's not like you're having daily meetings with them, and and and you don't know what their plan is, and you're you are being talked about all the time in conversations that don't include you. Uh, and I reached out to my my editor once and I just said, can I get an employee review? Because if I were in the corporate world, which I used to be in, I'd get reviewed once a year. So I know at least what you think of me and what you're thinking about for my career. And so I called a medium, like just tell me what you think of me. Tell me what you think of, you know, because unless you do that, it's not going to happen. Because even though you're this important part of the equation, you're not you're you're just not talking to them all that often. So you're still kind of lost in space a bit.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

Yeah, I I I totally agree. Um uh what I would have said though is, and here's a slight difference, is I would have said to them, Well, look, let's do my review first, then we'll do your review.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Right, right, a 360 review.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

Because at the end of the day, it you know, takes two. I I write the book, but you gotta sell it. Right. So let's, you know, and and I'm very lucky in that a lot of the publishers I I I work with, I get a lot of emails saying, tell us about what you think we're doing right, and tell us what you think we're doing wrong, or what can we do better, and how's your experience?

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

And I get those a lot, and that's hugely helpful. And because usually everything goes great. Um and I I'm very lucky in the in the two editors I have now. We work fantastically together. We all come together sometimes in Zoom calls and bounce ideas off, or you know, usually for titles, because I'm terrible at titles, but we work collaboratively together on everything, on covers, on what are we going to do for marketing and what am I gonna do, and what are you gonna do, and and then and my agent then will handle the business side of things. But I like being creatively involved in the publishing process, especially the covers. I think that's essential. As someone who's had terrible covers, um, I really get involved now in it. Um, and I I and I enjoy doing it, and I think everyone enjoys doing it.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

I I I agree, I love the creative process as well. Um, and then also as long as as authors, we're understanding our own limitations and respecting other people's core business. So if I have a design team showing me covers and I'm pushing back on it, which I have all the right to do, I'm also understanding they do this for a living, you know. Oh, yeah. So I have to understand where the so I love it when they come to me and say, this is why this cover. Here are the elements, here are the comps, you know, here's the marketing strategy. I love that, as opposed to just like this is what we were thinking, and you don't really understand why that. Um exactly.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

But it's not it's not just one cover. What you really want to do is building a brand.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

You know, even in your standalones, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Oh, I've had covers gone back and they've changed them, you know, five books ago. They're we're changing this cover, so it's all part of the look and feel. And titles are the same way, like that. Like I might have titles that I feel maybe are a little clumsy, but they're part of the brand. Like it's important, for example, we have pronouns in my covers or titles or whatever. Whatever it is, there has to be like, oh, that's a Carter Wilson book. That's a Steve Kavanaugh that totally has the look and feel of it before I even open it up.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

Exactly. For us, it's really we kind of got it down now. So we got the title and the tagline working together and the image working together. So we get all of those three things uh look working um as one thing, as one single package to sell a single idea to or concept to your reader.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Yeah, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

And if we get all of those three, and it's very hard to get all of those three right. Um, but if we get if we do, then it's it's great. And I'm very lucky with the designers, uh, you know, and creative people I'm working with. And uh obviously, you know, a lot of times they do know more than me. Right. Um, but we all defer to my wife who knows everything and can spot a terrible cover or a terrible, you know, title from me a mile away. Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

So as long as you stay together, your career's gonna be solid.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

My career's going.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Yeah. Well, Steve, we're gonna wrap up. Before we do, we're gonna do a quick storytelling of our own. This is the making it up portion of the show. I've got three books here at random that I pulled randomly from my bookshelf. We're gonna choose a book, we're gonna choose a random sentence from a random page. I'm gonna read that sentence, and that'll be the first sentence in like a two-minute long short story. So I'll read that sentence, you give me the next sentence, I'll do one. It'll go off the rails, and then I'll call it when it's when it's completely terrible. It usually gets pretty dark pretty fast, too. So don't don't worry about holding back.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

Um, I've got uh Julie Compton's Tell No Lies, um, Todd Goldberg's Only Way Out, and Harlan Coben's The Woods, which I don't think is about uh uh a girl raised in the woods by a serial killer, but it might be no, it's not uh I think that's about you know kids going to the woods and when one comes out, I think.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Got it.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Um let's let's go with Harlan.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Okay, so give me a page between one and four hundred.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Um is he bang on 400 pages? This one, yeah. Wow. Um I would say let's go for page 123.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Okay, I'm gonna quickly look at page 123, and it's almost all dialogue. Um, all right. Um dialogue can work okay as well, don't mind. Yeah. So I have no idea who's saying this or the context, and you can do whatever you want with it. It's just one piece of dialogue. Do they try to hide their faces?

SPEAKER_02 42:40

That should be the opening line of that. That's a great line. And I give you the next line on the other.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Yep, yeah, whatever you want.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

No, they wanted me to know exactly who was doing this.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

I barely got the word words out as the memories of those specific faces brought a well of nausea through my gut. The beards, the nose rings, the engravings on their foreheads.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

What are you going to do in the mind?

SPEAKER_00 43:26

I asked the man in front of me. He looked like he had something very specific in mind. He looked like he had dealt with people victims like me before. But his answer didn't give me any comfort.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

What can I do? It's already happened.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

My scraped bloody toes, the ribs in my jeans. And I thought if I have to do something, I don't know if it's gonna work. I don't know if I'm strong enough. And I don't even know where to start.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

The man seemed to sense exactly what I was feeling. And he said, You better sit this one and leave it in me.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

And it was at the moment I realized if I were a character in a novel and I sat this out, this is where the readers would throw the book against the wall. They would scream, she has to have agency, she has to do something. So I swallowed hard, looked at the man, and said, All I need to do is borrow a gun.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

I think we call it there.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

That's that's a call it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Excellent. That was fun.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

You're the common denominator here. I am. The funny thing is when somebody tries to go light, I I I start to freeze. I'm like, I don't know what to do with this. Hey man, it was it was good to see you. I think we met briefly at Hamptons who've done it, but uh I appreciate you being on on the podcast. And um, I hope to uh catch you in person next time you're you're in the states.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Absolutely, yeah. It would be great to catch up. I don't get to the states often, sometimes by circulation. I've been once. I've never been to Thriller Fest. A lot of people tell me to go, but I've never been.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

That's not too far of a trip for you. So maybe, maybe, maybe next year.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Maybe next year.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

But yeah, no pleasure. We enjoyed it. All right, man. We'll talk soon. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 45:49

Thanks, Cutter. And apologies to Harlan Coben. I think he I think he's a little proud.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

All right, talk to you later, man. Cheers. Bye bye. All right, that is it. That is my conversation with Steve Kavanaugh. That was a good one. I could have talked to him a lot longer. It felt like we were just chatting, chatting. Um, whatever came to mind, all of a sudden I looked down, and about 45 minutes had gone by, and I'm like, wow, this just flew by. I love those kind of conversations. Um, you can check out all of his books and everything that he's up to at his website, which is stevecavanaugh.com. Um, and you can check out my books, you know, my my upcoming book, When They Find Me. It's it's on uh it's available for for pre-order now. Uh you can get it anywhere where you get your books, but go to my website, CarterWilson.com, and you can see all those links to buy it there. And if you're interested in writing coaching or our Unbound Writer Paris writing retreat in 2027, just on head on over to unboundwriter.com. All right, that is it. That is it for this episode of Making It Up, another one out soon. Um, friends, I always appreciate you watching or listening to this. If you're enjoying this show, drop me a line at me at carterwilson.com and let me know. Or if there's a guest that you want to see on here, I can try to chase them down. Um, all right, that is it. In the meantime, until next week, take care of it.